Category talk:Candidates for deletion/Unidentified lethal curse

Merge
Please do not remove my merge template. The existence of this page is sheer speculation and belongs elsewhere. 98.117.158.220 05:12, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

It is a canocial article backed up by several sources. Do not add the merge template again. Jayden Matthews 11:47, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

One source that just says "Harry Potter and the Order of the Pheonix" is not "several sources". I will be disscussing this with an admin. 98.117.158.220 06:18, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Three sources actually. can't you count? Jayden Matthews 09:43, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Can't you? Look at the "Notes and Refrences" section. 98.117.158.220 00:39, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

While this curse did not kill Sirius Black, an unidentified lethal curse did kill Bellatrix Lestrange. I say this article stays, but without the reference to Sirius Black. He died, because he fell through the Veil. --Hcoknhoj 00:59, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * That also works. I'll remove refrences to Sirius Black. 98.117.158.220 02:16, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I really don't beleave that it's another curse, it's the same stupefy but when bellatrix and molly did it they felt to much angry and made the spell more powerfull.
 * There is now a seperate article for the curst that killed sirius. Also, please sign your comments with four ~s. 98.117.158.220 02:40, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * The curse exists regardless of whether or not it was responsible for his death. We don't know if it was the veil or the curse that kills Black, but the way the scene is written implies that he was fatally wounded before he fell through. As the effects of the curse are identicle to the one that Molly uses, I say we keep them the same for the time being, so, I'm reverting your changes. –K.A.J•T•C•E• 11:10, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * How is it similar to Molly's curse? Laughter and smiling are two very different things. 98.117.158.220 02:08, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Forgivable?
I suppose this may be more of a general question than ought be posed here, but does anyone have any idea what it is about this curse that makes it -not- one of the three unforgivable curses? If it's lethal, I don't see why it's any more forgivable than Avada Kedavra-- at least with Avada Kedavra, the death is instant and doesn't give the victim a chance to be shocked about their impending doom... I guess I'm also just wondering, generally, about the classification of curses like this one. -- Emmy (★) 00:06, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can only speculate, but I would guess that the curse isn't necessarily lethal. it probably just disrupts or impedes whatever part of the body it comes into contact with, and as Sirius and Bellatrix were both struck in the heart, they died. That's just my theory though. As for classification, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? Jayden Matthews 11:57, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that more or less makes sense, I though it might be something like that too. Which is why I'm wondering why this called unidentified "lethal" curse; if it can be used non-lethally, than the name seems inaccurate. If it can't, however, then that really still begs the question of why it's not unforgivable. Two different issues, haha, I know, but still, I don't think we should assume this curse is an assuredly lethal one. -- Emmy (★) 12:26, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, like I said, that's just my guess. We only know of two cases where the curse was used, and both times it produced lethal results. As to why it's not "unforgivable" - who knows. It's only ever been used non-verbally before, so maybe it was developed without the knowledge or consent of the Ministry, like Snape's Sectumpempra. Jayden Matthews 12:54, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Molly
When did Molly use it? I never remember that. I thought she used a killing curse. 75.27.36.231 23:41, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought so too but apparently it was this. Belabitch did take a few moments to die when the Killing Curse kills you instantly and it happened in the same manner as Sirius.--WarGrowlmon18 23:50, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason it is not believed it was the killing curse she used against Bellatrix is because it says "for the tiniest space of time she knew what had happened.", and with the killing curse the victim is killed instantly with no idea what happened. --BachLynn Gryffindorcrest.jpg(Accio! ) 23:51, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, how do we know it was this curse, not some other lethal curse? There have to be other curses that kill you, like the curse Antonin used on Hermione. Then there are probably other curses that kill you. 75.27.36.231 00:04, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sirius was hit with a killing curse, and survived for a while, although Bella was hit in the chest, and Sirius was hit in the arm, possibly he survived because he was just hit in the arm. 75.27.36.231 15:23, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sirius was not hit with the Killing Curse. The curse that hit Sirius had a red/orange color if I remember correctly. I doubt Milly used Dolohov's curse, as that seems to be specific to Dolohov, I doubt anyone else knew how to do it. --JKoch Ravenclawcrest.jpg(Owl Me! ) 15:37, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sirius wasn't hit in the arm, he was hit in the chest, but he was hit with Avada Kedavra, and there is nothing to suggest otherwiswe. Just because his eyes widened in shock it doesn't mean he did not die imediately. If you are shot in the head your eyes will no doubt display shock or pain, but you will still drop dead instantly. In Bellatrix's case the key phrases are her eyes seemed to bulge and for the tiniest space of time. If something seems a certain way then, while it may appear that way, it isn't necessarily the case. And, as has already been pointed out, if she saw the curse comming, then she would have known what had happened. J.K. Rowling does not name the curse that kills Sirius, or describe it. Thefore, the films, as second tier canon may be used to fill the gap. So, according to this wiki's canon policy Sirius was hit with Avada Kedavra. We will have to wait until the final film next year to discover the cause of Bellatrix's death, but no doubt it will be the same as her cousin's and not this imaginary curse. 86.161.254.108 18:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the movie they used the Killing Curse just because it was easier, there he was dead as he fell into the Veil not because he fell into the Veil. Falling through the Veil alone kills you.  Given Harry's reaction in the book to try to save him it wasn't the Killing Curse as Harry would've known for a fact it was too late.  It took Remus for him to realize that.--WarGrowlmon18 18:43, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sirius wasn't hit in the arm, he was hit in the chest, but he was hit with Avada Kedavra, and there is nothing to suggest otherwiswe. Just because his eyes widened in shock it doesn't mean he did not die imediately. If you are shot in the head your eyes will no doubt display shock or pain, but you will still drop dead instantly. In Bellatrix's case the key phrases are her eyes seemed to bulge and for the tiniest space of time. If something seems a certain way then, while it may appear that way, it isn't necessarily the case. And, as has already been pointed out, if she saw the curse comming, then she would have known what had happened. J.K. Rowling does not name the curse that kills Sirius, or describe it. Thefore, the films, as second tier canon may be used to fill the gap. So, according to this wiki's canon policy Sirius was hit with Avada Kedavra. We will have to wait until the final film next year to discover the cause of Bellatrix's death, but no doubt it will be the same as her cousin's and not this imaginary curse. 86.161.254.108 18:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the movie they used the Killing Curse just because it was easier, there he was dead as he fell into the Veil not because he fell into the Veil. Falling through the Veil alone kills you.  Given Harry's reaction in the book to try to save him it wasn't the Killing Curse as Harry would've known for a fact it was too late.  It took Remus for him to realize that.--WarGrowlmon18 18:43, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the policy of this wiki is that Sirius was not killed by the Killing Curse. The book basically leaves it open that Sirius was pushed through the Veil by whatever curse Bellatrix hit him with. We honestly have no idea if Molly and Bellatrix both killed with this same unknown curse, but both reacted or appeared to react prior to death. --JKoch (Owl Me! ) 18:18, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The canon policy specifically states that as long as information from the films is not contradicted by the books then it is canon. If you read my above comment carefully, you will see why the book does not rule out Avada Kedavra as Sirius's killer. Futhermore, the image in this article is of Stupefy. I know, as I've played the game. I tell you, this curse does not exist. 86.161.254.108 18:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Harry was grieving for Sirius. He would have beleived anything was possible in order for him to still be alive. Furthermore in the book, Bellatrix casts her curse non-verbally, meaning that Harry would not know what curse she used. 86.161.254.108 18:51, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Only one pair was still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix's jet of red light: he was laughing at her. 'Come on, you can do better than that!' he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so. He was jumping down the steps again, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore, too, turned towards the dais. It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall: his body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backwards through the ragged veil hanging from the arch. Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather's wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind, then fell back into place. Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream, but knew it meant nothing - Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second… But Sirius did not reappear." --BachLynn Gryffindorcrest.jpg(Accio! ) 19:01, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The spell, whatever it might have been, that ended Sirius life (and I don't use the word "killed" on purpose; he may have been pushed through the Veil alive) was described as a "second jet of [red] light" (I added the emphasis on the book transcription above). This does rule out the possibility of Avada Kedavra and makes the film an ineligible canon tier on this matter. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 19:11, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The first jet of light is red, the second is not decribed. 86.161.254.108 19:14, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * That may be (the second light not being described) BUT it says that his eyes "widened" after the curse hit him as he was falling backwards, if the killing curse had hit him his facial features wouldn't change after the curse hit, widened implies that he was still alive after the curse hit, therefore definitely not avada kedavra. --BachLynn Gryffindorcrest.jpg(Accio! ) 19:17, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've already explained this, see my first comment. Muscle reflexes continue to opperate for a short period of time after death. 86.161.254.108 19:22, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, how about this then, you're interpreting JKR's words one way, others interpret it another way, unless JKR has said so there's no way to know if when she wrote "his eyes widened with shock" was an involuntary muscle twitch or that he was still alive and his eyes widened in shock. Personally based on JKR's writing style I have a hard time believing she would take the time to write about involuntary muscle spasms as they don't add anything to the story, but who knows, either way, does not prove it was avada kedavra. --BachLynn Gryffindorcrest.jpg(Accio! ) 19:28, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, but if the second jet of light wasn't red, Rowling wouldn't have written the second jet of light; she'd have written someting along the lines of another jet of light. By writing "the second", Rowling strongly implied the spell that killed him was the same as the one she had just cast (or, at least, that's what I interpret from that passage). --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 19:34, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * But that's my point, it doesn't prove it one way or another. That's what the canon policy is for, which, sadly some people seem happy to ignore when it doesn't support their own views. Furthermore there is no case where Avada Kedavra is described as killing instantly. The spider that Crouch/Moody kills was described as rolling on to it's back instantaneously not dying instantaneously. The force of the curse could have knocked it onto it's back. Another explanation could be that a spider, as a relatively simple organism would die quicker than a human being. Also, Seth, if you cast two jets of light, a red one and a green one, the green one is still a second jet of light. 109.155.62.69 19:43, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * But also as significant as the killing curse is to Harry and his past, I have a really hard time believing JKR wouldn't have specifically stated that as the curse if it had been the curse. --<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="Purple" >BachLynn Gryffindorcrest.jpg(<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="2" color="Purple">Accio! ) 19:49, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, in book 4 when Frank Bryce is killed with the killing curse it says "He was dead before he hit the floor". As it only takes a couple of seconds to fall that sounds pretty instantaneous to me. --<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="4" color="Purple" >BachLynn Gryffindorcrest.jpg(<font face="Monotype Corsiva" size="2" color="Purple">Accio! ) 19:52, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I doubt it. It was the caster, not the curse that was significant to Harry. Something else which reinforces my point is Sirius describing his own death as quicker and easier than falling asleep. Doesn't sound like being hit with a curse that "triggered cardiac arrest". Where does that information even come from? A couple of seconds is all it takes for your eyes to "widen in shock". 109.155.62.69 19:56, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're probably right about the "second" thingy. It's just it's the way I always had interpreted it. Oh, by the way, despite what it is written in this article I actually see little evidence to suggest that this spell triggers cardiac arrest. As for his death being quicker and easier than falling asleep we don't know whether he's talking about the hypothetical Avada Kedavra/curse or his "death by drapery". -- <font style="color:#333333;"> Seth Cooper <font style="background:#333333;color:white;"> owl post! 20:17, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fair enough, at least we're making progress. OK let's sumarise the points we have covered so far.

Does anyone else have anything to add? 86.164.172.55 20:29, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Did Sirius die instantly? - Probably. His eyes widening in shock could have been the physical force of the spell, or could have occured post-mortem.
 * 2) Was the curse red or green - We don't know. Bellatrix fired at least one red spell at him, but the color of the fatal one is not given.
 * 3) Does Avada Kedavra always kill instantly - There is no concreate piece of text that says so, as I'v explained above.