Talk:Dolores Umbridge/Archive 2

Blood Status
I bet she's a half blood prancing around trying to call herself pure. How much you wanna bet her father is some filthy muggle :D


 * I believe you may be right about that. Its the same as Voldemort, he acts like a pureblood but he's not. but I wouldn't call her father (or maybe mother) a 'filthy muggle.' that would be rude. Gryffindor1991 03:33, September 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * I have no doubt that Umbridge is a pureblood BUT having said that, it is possible that one or both of her parents were half-bloods with some muggle-born witch/wizard ancestry in her. Riddle hated muggles, but he made no secret that he was a half-blood; his position being that the purity of his wizard blood was more important than that of his muggle father. Sings-With-Spirits 15:48, September 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * If both of her parents are half bloods, that makes her half blood too. I like that theory. I definitely think
 * she's a halfblood or at least has significant muggle blood.
 * she's a halfblood or at least has significant muggle blood.


 * Still, this is all speculation with no canonical basis. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 19:18, September 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Rampant speculation at that. Sings-With-Spirits 20:22, September 3, 2011 (UTC)

We can't really ascertain her blood status based solely on her support of pure-blood supremacy. Negative experiences with a Muggle or Muggle-born parent could very well have shaped her prejudices. I've always found it notable that there's no reference to another witch or wizard named Umbridge anywhere in canon, and that she had to rely on apparently distant relations (the Selwyns) to "bolster her own pure-blood credentials."

But I disgress. ★ S t a r s t u f f (Owl me!) 02:04, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Now, J.K. shows new content on Pottermore about pure-bloods. The Umbridge family isn't on it. http://www.pottermore.com/en/book2/chapter7/moment1/pure-blood

Sorry for my bad English.

Magicalfenix (talk) 20:54, September 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * We've already decided that while we're willing to make determinations of possible pure-bloods based on that list, it's not sufficient evidence to decide if a particular family is not pureblood. ProfessorTofty (talk) 21:00, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated Claim
From the article, "She, like Cornelius Fudge, believed that Dumbledore was trying to overthrow the Ministry of Magic and hence usurp the position of Minister for Magic."

Do we really believe for a moment that Umbridge believed that? I was under the impression that Umbridge was simply using the Minister's fears as a way to get all the power she eventually did get at Hogwarts. I think either credance ought to be given to that theory in the article, or that sentence simply be removed, but I just want to be sure that I'm not being stupid here. Cream147 20:53, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the best evidence we have for that is in the "Career Advice" chapter, Chapter 29. Umbridge comments that "The Minister for Magic will never employ Harry Potter!" and McGonagall replies that there might well be a new minister by the time Harry were ready to sign up. Umbridge shoots back-- "Aha! Yes, yes, yes, yes! Of course! That's what you want, isn't it, Minerva McGonagall? You want Cornelius Fudge replaced by Albus Dumbledore! You think you'll be where I am, don't you: Senior Undersecretary to the Minister and Headmistress to boot!" ProfessorTofty 22:52, November 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh, very good, I forgot about that line! That does seem to be proof that Umbridge had some insecurities. In fact, she probably felt most threatened by McGonagall because she perceived McGonagall as wanting to be where she is. No wonder the two had such a fiery relationship (well, McGonagall's resilience and stubbornness played a part in that as well!). Cream147 21:36, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Hogwarts
All right, so there's been a lot of speculation about Umbridge's possible house, but here's something else to consider, something that was pointed out in the forum topic regarding the matter - do we know for sure if Umbridge even attended Hogwarts during her youth? It seems to have just been assumed in the article, but there's no source for it. And it's not something that we can just assume - for example, the article for Cornelius Fudge made no reference of him attending the school until this was proved by a line from a film. In any case, I will remove the item from the article unless someone has a source that she actually did attend the school. ProfessorTofty 16:45, January 23, 2012 (UTC)

At the start-of-term feast, she says something like "beautiful to be here again" I think.--Rodolphus 14:00, January 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, she says "It is lovely to be back at Hogwarts, I must say!" So that's that settled. Thanks! ProfessorTofty 01:01, January 27, 2012 (UTC)

More analagous information
There is a section in the "trivia" that compares Umbridge's persecution of muggle-borns to Hitler's policies; I thought it would be useful to continue with this and point out that her attitude towards students, that they should report any misdemeanours to her or the Inquisitorial Squad (for example "if anyone tells you nasty stories about [Voldemort] returning....", is similar to how Hitler and the SS encouraged people to report their neighbours, friends and family members to the authorities if they spoke out against Hitler's regime beliefs. Just a thought. RavenclawDBS (talk) 19:26, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

Quote in the great hall
'''I see no reason why we wouldn't add this to the quote? '''

"Hem-Hem... Thank you, headmaster, for those kind words of welcome. [...] The Ministry of Magic has always considered the education of young witches and wizards to be of a vital importance. Although each headmaster has brought something new to this... historic school, progress for the sake of progress must be discouraged. Let us preserve what must be preserved, perfect what can be perfected and prune practices that ought to be... prohibited!"

Why use the [...]? I think people love to see the other two sentences too...

So I think we'll have to include And how lovely to see al your bright, happy faces smiling up to me. I'm sure we all going to be very good friends . in the quote.

Template: Loyalty:
Why does it say that she is loyal to Azkaban? What kind of prisoner would be loyal to a prison?

inaccurate citation
The quote from Sirius isn't from The Prisoner of Azkaban, it's from The Order of the Phoenix

Facts
Just wanted to make sure what we (I) know (think) of Umbridge is accurate:
 * 1) There is no mention of a Miss or Mrs or Ms to help us with Umbridge's marital status, but she is called Madam as opposed to Madame - and in most countries Madam is used for the mistress of a household, or else the owner, whereas Madame is used for married women. Completely ignoring how utterly repulsive she is, is this proof of her not being married, besides no mention of a husband or of children?
 * 2) Her hair is described as being the colour of iron in Half-Blood Prince - as only extremely large amounts of iron, actual iron, are brown and normal quantities are grey, shouldn't her infobox list her hair colour as being first brown then grey?
 * 3) Her blood status is currently described as being either pure-blood or half-blood. Now, as a) the Umbridge family is absent from the Sacred Twenty-Eight, b) there is no other witch or wizard with the surname Umbridge and c) she relies on very distant relations, the Selwyns, to bolster her pure-blood credentials, I propose that she is half-blood, as she would have been discovered as Muggle-born by the Death Eaters if she was such.
 * 4) Given that she had grey hair in 1997 (see above) is it fair to assume she was relatively aged? This is also suggested that by 1995 she already has a place as Senior Undersecretary to the Minister, and a membership of the Wizengamot, and has heavy wrinkles (at least, she does in the film). I'm assuming she was in her fifties and no older in 1997, given how up-to-date she was with modern rules, regulations and outside activities and how friendly she is with Cornelius Fudge, who was Junior Minister in 1981. Does this seem logical? I don't want to get out of hand here. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 21:06, August 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) "Madam" seems to be the default title given to women who work at the Ministry of Magic. Umbridge, as well as Griselda Marchbanks, Amelia Bones, Marietta Edgecombe's mother are all referred to as "Madam" (and note that the last one is known to have married and to have children). It seems that "Madam" gives no indication of marital status. As for being repulsive, people can have strange tastes (Petunia Evans did fall in love with Vernon Dursley, after all). Lack of mention of a husband or children is proof of nothing — up until Pottermore we wouldn't have imagined Minerva McGonagall to have been married either.
 * 2) Iron is shiny and silver-gray when extracted, however, exposure to air creates iron oxides which are reddish-brown. In mineral form, iron is brownish as well. This actually makes me indecisive whether Rowling meant Umbridge's hair was brown or grey.
 * 3) The Sacred Twenty-Eight on the Pure-Blood Directory are families whose author deemed to be truly Pure-blood. The Potters (whom we know to have been pure-blood up until the marriage of James and Lily) are notably absent as are, I am sure, other Pure-blood families that the author didn't consider to be truly Pure-blood (I find it hard to believe that they are only 28). The fact that she does associate with the Selwyns is because they are one of the Sacred Twenty-Eight (and that would bolster her pure-blood credentials even if she was one of the, lets say, lesser pure-blood families).
 * 4) Umbridge seems to be relatively aged, yes. She is repeatedly referred to as "the old hag", and occupied the post of Senior Undersecretary. Umbridge was a member of the Wizengamot, and we learn in the WOMBAT tests that the average age of a member is 87 years. All this seems to confirm she's aged, but I don't think we can narrow it down any further than that (I personally think she's on the wrong side of 70, but there is no hard canonical proof for this). -- <font style="color:#333333;"> Seth Cooper <font style="background:#333333;color:white;"> owl post! 21:41, August 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Your point about Umbridge's marital status and family are of course completely valid, but I have a few counter-arguments (all in friendship, or at the very least with friendliness in mind):


 * 1) If Umbridge is fifty or older (and it seems we are in agreement that she is) it makes sense for her hair to be grey, due both to her age and the stress of the previous year (it is not uncommon for premature greying or balding to occur some characters, such as Remus Lupin, and mixed with her age this is no surprise).
 * 2) But why is there no other character by the name of Umbridge to ever exist in the novels? And why such a distant relation to boost her credentials, even if they are on the Sacred Twenty-Eight?
 * 3) She is noted to have bulging eyes, quivering jowls and a wide wrinkled face, all (as far as I am aware) a relative sign of old age. Another thing: her voice is continually described as being breathish, and more than once she is noted to have difficulty breathing after long rants. Although this may just be a combination of being overweight and anger, I think it is a sign that her lungs aren't quite what they used to be. This, combined with my above points both on her age and hair colour, suggest that she is indeed around sixty or, now I think about it, probably "on the wrong side of 70".
 * Hopefully there've been no hard feelings with this argument, as naturally we all want this wiki to be the most exact and accurate source on the web (I've already seen links pointing to it on several fansites and such). --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:05, August 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Of course it's all in friendship, I don't believe I've ever taken it bad.
 * I think we both agree that Umbridge is somewhat aged, although to which extent we can only speculate. As for no other Umbridges being mentioned, well, that is proof of nothing. Thorfinn Rowle is also the only mentioned Rowle in the series, and that does not put his known Pure-blood status in jeopardy. Maybe Rowling simply didn't want to mention any family members of hers in the series? We can only hope she does for Pottermore, when Order of the Phoenix is finally released. -- <font style="color:#333333;"> Seth Cooper <font style="background:#333333;color:white;"> owl post! 22:45, August 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. So, to summarise, nothing's really changed? --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:50, August 13, 2013 (UTC)

Naming
I'm not at all sure this is the right place for this, but I have a question ... was it always so in the 1900s (probably the 1950s or earlier) for a daughter to take her father's surname? Especially since wizards are described as being "old-fashioned", and it was a traditional thing for a kid to get their dad's last name.

I'm wondering this because, if this holds true, then Umbridge's father was born an Umbridge, and her mother married into the Umbridge family. Thus the Selwyn line might not be distant at all - it might be her mother's maiden name, or a grandmother's maiden name. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 01:50, November 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I wonder what it means that Umbridge wears shocking pink, which conveys a certain punky attitude? --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 01:28, December 7, 2013 (UTC)

Infobox colour
This is the only "Convict individual infobox" with another colour. Why? <font style="background:#F75D59;color:gold;"> Harry granger <font style="background:yellow;color:black;">  Talk  <font style="background:yellow;color:;"> <font style="background: #99CCFF;color:#993300;"> contribs <font style="background: #99CCFF;color:#993300;"> 21:35, May 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * The infobox was presumably made pink because even during her time with the Death Eaters, her presence and tenure were always marked by pink. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:05, August 5, 2014 (UTC)

Imprisoned for life
Is there actually a canon source that states that Umbridge was imprisoned for life, as the article currently says? This 2007 web chat only states: She was arrested, interrogated and imprisoned for crimes against Muggleborns. Her Pottermore biography only says that Umbridge was put on trial for her enthusiastic co-operation with his regime, and convicted of the torture, imprisonment and deaths of several people (some of the innocent Muggle-borns she sentenced to Azkaban did not survive their ordeal). Neither source says that she was imprisoned for life. Is there something I've overlooked? Luna Scamander (talk) 23:26, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * As no one has provided any source for this, I've removed it. Feel free to revert me if there's anything I've overlooked. Luna Scamander (talk) 15:44, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

Color on Article
Shouldn't the color on her article be green like the rest of the Slytherins instead of pink? Nickbrock123 = incorrect sign


 * I thought the same, look here! <font style="background:#F75D59;color:gold;"> Harry granger <font style="background:yellow;color:black;">  Talk  <font style="background:yellow;color:;"> <font style="background: #99CCFF;color:#993300;"> contribs <font style="background: #99CCFF;color:#993300;"> 17:18, March 15, 2015 (UTC)


 * Her box would actually properly be the taupe and dark grey convict individual infobox, per our guidelines about using the most recent affiliation. In fact, it technically is, just coded to be using a different colour. I don't really have a problem with her having a uniquely coloured box (after all, one could argue that Umbridge's main loyalty has always been to herself), but I'd also be fine with standardising it if it's what the community wants.. -- 1337star (Drop me a line!) 18:24, March 16, 2015 (UTC)

Blood Status
I thought she was a pure blood? --  C.Syde  ( talk &#124;  contribs ) 21:48, March 27, 2015 (UTC)


 * I guess that may not be the case, per discussion above. --  C.Syde  ( talk &#124;  contribs ) 21:49, March 27, 2015 (UTC)


 * Or, more specifically, Pottermore lists her blood status as being half-blood (don't take my word for it, check it out :p) --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:19, March 27, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I just noticed that. :D --  C.Syde  ( talk &#124;  contribs ) 22:30, March 27, 2015 (UTC)

Age
Umbridge's Pottermore biography (link) states that she was Head of the Improper Use of Magic Office "before she was thirty". This implies that she was at least thirty when she was known to be Senior Undersecretary, in 1995. However, Sirius mentions that he only knows of Umbridge by “reputation”. As he mentions Bertha Jorkins by name and knows her in person – (“She was at Hogwarts when I was, a few years above your dad and me. And she was an idiot.”) – and mentions the older group of Slytherins that Snape hung around with and makes no indication that Umbridge was at Hogwarts with him, that implies, as he only knows Umbridge by reputation, that she was not at Hogwarts with him. Thus, as she was at least 30 in 1995, she cannot have been born in 1965 – her first two years at Hogwarts (1976 to 1977 and 1977 to 1978) would have clashed with Sirius’s and he would have known her by more than “reputation” if that was accurate as he would have witnessed her Sorting at Hogwarts – so she must have already finished Hogwarts at the time he arrived in 1970. Assuming she graduated in 1970 (and is not even older), she must have been seventeen. Seventeen years before July 1970 is July 1953. Umbridge’s birthdate is August, so she would not be seventeen in 1970 if born in 1953; she’d be sixteen and just turning seventeen, so, assuming she graduated in 1970, she had to have been born (at the latest), in 1952, and be almost 18 at Graduation. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 11:45, February 13, 2016 (UTC)


 * This only confirms that she wasn´t in Sirius' year. She may well have been there at the same time, but a few years above or under him. The fact that he knew a few older students doesn´t mean he knew all of them. Hogwarts has about 1.000 students, it is nearly impossible to know all of them personally. Harry also did not know everyone who attended Hogwarts with him.--Rodolphus (talk) 11:54, February 13, 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, she definitely cannot be younger than him; that'd make it impossible for her to be 30 in 1995 and Sirius would know of her as her first two years - 1976-1977 and 1977-1978 - would clash with his final two and he'd know of her sorting. The fact that he also only knows her by reputation, yet knows Jorkins (who was up to 6 years older than him!) implies, to me, that Umbridge wasn't at Hogwarts when he was. He would have seen her at least once if she was -- no matter what year they're in as they'd see each other at feasts. The fact that he explicitly states that it's by reputation only implies she was gone by 1971 when he began his schooling. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 13:37, February 13, 2016 (UTC)


 * That Harry knew Oliver Wood is not proof that he knew Cormac McLaggen before his sixth year. Also, note how there are several students mentioned in passing throughout the books that Harry doesn't know by name even though he attended their Sorting (Unidentified Gryffindor boy is one such example, there are others). -- <font style="background:#FFFFFF;color:#333333;"> Seth Cooper <font style="background:#333333;color:white;"> owl post! 14:06, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

Aye, but with Umbridge you'd remember something so... pink... even if you tried to forget. And note, Harry only attended 2 sortings from his own (GOF and OOTP) so if they were in those years (e.g. sorted in COS or POA) he'd miss them anyway. And, Sirius mentions only knowing Umbridge by reputation; he'd know her by more than that, even if it was just in passing, when he was at Hogwarts with her; Harry, for example, has met the unidentified Gryffindor boy and knows him by more than reputation as they've actually met. Based on that, Sirius and Umbridge never did... so she has to be older than him and already gone when he began. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 14:25, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

it is not excluded that Sirius mised Sorting Ceremonies as well. Also, Umbridge did not always wear pink. The book mentioned that she once wore green clothes during a Quidditch match to support her old House. Also, she would have worn her school uniform most of the time, like everyone else.--Rodolphus (talk) 15:32, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

Well, nonetheless, it is not possible for her to be at Hogwarts with him as he'd know her by more than reputation. Thus, she has to have left by the time he started in 1971.--HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 16:23, February 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * HarryPotterRules1 - I suggest you just drop the subject and accept that you've made a miscalculation. Your evidence that Umbridge was older than Sirius is not nearly sufficient enough to be used in the article as proof. I know that you're probably feeling disappointed that your input to this page has been rejected out of hand, but other editors have felt the same way. You should just accept this and move on. ―  C.Syde  ( talk &#124;  contribs ) 18:14, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

Simply being at school at the same time as someone does not make them instantly aware of each other- how many of the 1000s of Students present during Tom Riddle's tenure, for example, would have known of him? He was only known as "Voldemort" to close friends, and his head boy duties weren't necessarily cross-house. Later, pretty much everyone had heard of him by reputation, even though some may have been in the same year as him at Hogwarts. As for the sorting; do you yourself remember absolutely everyone who has ever appeared on a long list that you have heard read out on one occasion? Multiply that by seven for each of the years Sirius will have been there. She'd have been called up pretty late on in sortings too, so the novelty would have worn off and many would likely have stopped paying attention anyway.  RavenclawDBS  ( MCKA DevilboyScooby) 21:00, February 13, 2016 (UTC)