Talk:Albus Dumbledore

Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore by Newt Scamander
Grindelwald was known of one of the most evil dark wizards of Europe during the 20th Century, until He Who Must Not Be Named took his place. He was educated at Durmstrang, the Northern Wizarding school which specialises in the Dark Arts, where Grindelwald grew as a legion. He was eventually expelled from the school because of his evil behaviour and he left to visit his aunt, Bathilda Bagshot, Famous Historian and writer of :     A History of Magic, in her home at Godric's Hollow.

Albus Dumbledore, who was the same age as Grindelwald and lived next to him while he looked after his youger brother and sister, had struck up a friendship with Gellert and the communicated, sending owls to each other with letters about their ideas, known as The Greater Good. They took a special interest in The Deathly Hallows, which the sign of had been carved into a wall at Durmstrang by none other than the evil Gellert Grindelwald. In later stages of their friendship, Gellert Grindelwald left to further his powers after the death of Ariana Dumbledore, a girl known to have had magical problems caused by three Muggle boys who Ariana's father attacked and was sent and died in Azkaban for his crime.

Albus's brother, Aberforth, left as well and fought with his brother at their sister's funeral, blaming him for the cruel death of their sister, who did not attend Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry at eleven years, but was consider and told to have been, "ill". Albus Dumbledore continued his brilliance and eventually had a scroll of his great achievments and honuarary awards. He was offered the post for Minister of Magic several times, but refused the job and said his life lay in teaching.

Meanwhile, Grindelwald was pursuing his view of The Greater Good and torturing Muggles as he gained power. Yet he was always recognised to have feared Dumbledore, so in 1945 the two magnificent wizards had a legendary duel battle and Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. He then locked him up in his own prison, Nurmenguard, (a cell for his enemies), when in later stage he was killed by the Dark Lord.

After his battle, Dumbledore bacame a Tranfiguration teacher at Hogwarts for Armando Dippet. Dumbledore then rose until he took the post of Headmaster. In 1997, he was killed by the Hogwarts potions teacher, Severus Snape, the death of Dumbledore had been planned between them, because Dumbledore was dying from a cursed Horcrux ring. Albus Dumbledore is one of the most remembered wizards in the Wizarding World  and rests in peace at his Marble White Tomb, at Hogwarts, his home.

~Nox~.

-Griflytheruffleplaw

Death
Is it ever explicitly stated that he died in June? It is a mere week or two after the attack on Draco Malfoy with Sectumsempra that Dumbledore dies, and unless I am much mistaken that happened in May. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 00:58, October 23, 2013 (UTC)

According to Scrimgeour (and Hermione) in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Chapter 7 (The Will of Albus Dumbledore), the Ministry has the right to maintain possession of Dumbledore's bequests for thirty-one days only, in accordance with the Decree for Justifiable Confiscation. Dumbledore's bequests were delivered to Ron, Hermione and Harry on 31 July 1997: Harry Potter's seventeenth birthday. As it is referred in that chapter that the "thirty-one days are up", Dumbledore died exactly thirty-one days earlier, in the evening of 30 June. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 01:12, October 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * How likely is it that the Ministry grabbed his stuff the night he died? It's generally agreed they took the possessions on the day of the funeral. We therefore know the funeral took place on 30 June, and that his death happened a few weeks prior to that. Therefore, it could be either very late May or very early June. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 01:58, October 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * The will would have been turned over to the ministry the moment he passed away, as wills do in the Muggle world too. They had the will for 31 days, thus he died at the end of June. HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 02:27, October 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * So, we know he died sometime in late June, as per Betty Braithwaite's newspaper article in the Daily Prophet. We know the exams usually happen from the 1st to the 6th (except for 1994, where they happened around the 24th), and that they were postponed for a few days. They ended anywhere from three to seven days before the funeral, during which Harry, Ginny and the lot visited the hospital wing, and that they go on for a week. Thus, they ended anywhere from the 29th to the 25th, and thus began on either the 22nd or 18th. Is there any way of pinpointing a more exact death date? --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:30, October 31, 2013 (UTC)

Master of Death
Should it not be pointed out that he was Master of Death, having possessed all three Hallows for a period of time. Pesa123456789 (talk) 14:21, January 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * He did not, however, possess all three Hallows concurrently. He gave Harry the Cloak of Invisibility for Christmas in 1991, and only got the Ressurection Stone in the summer of 1996 (between the close of Order of the Phoenix and the start of Half-Blood Prince, when he got his hand cursed). --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 15:39, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Horcrux-Hunting
Just wondered, does anyone know where Dumbledore went when he got kicked out by Fudge and Dawlish and Umbridge and Weatherby? Dumbledore explicitly states in Order of the Phoenix that he wouldn't return to go to Grimmauld Place, nor would he be hiding. The comment "Fudge will soon wish he'd never dislodged me" is ambiguous for me, but I thought perhaps at that time he was beginning the hunt for Horcruxes? Or else heading around to question the Gaunts, Hokey and Ogden?--Hunnie Bunn (talk) 15:46, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Wand
I saw this article online and how one of the questions asked was "What was Dumbledore's wand made of?", and the answer was to do with elder wood. Elder is tricky to master, containing powerful magic, and needs to be with a wizard superior to his or her company; they have to be remarkable, unusual and special. Dumbledore is all of those things. While it's possible (nay, probable) that Rowling was talking about the Elder Wand, there is a slim chance she was also speaking at the same time of Dumbledore's first wand. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 19:28, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I've always thought Dumbledore's original wand were made out of either Acacia wood or Beech wood and, due to his wide varies of abilities and connection to the bird phoenixes, had most likely a phoenix feather core. Ninclow 11:42, March 30, 2015 (UTC)

Death date
Where it says in the very beginning of the first paragraph; Dumbledore died June 30 not late summer, why not specify the date instead? Maggiedev1996 (talk) 06:49, April 20, 2014 (UTC)Md1


 * That would be because several decisions were made simultaneously by various users; some agree that since it was close to spring and it was described as being in mid-June, the date Dumbledore died couldn't have been the thirtieth, whereas others disagree and say that since it was the only indication of anything related to Dumbledore's death the thirtieth should be used as the date. Thus an exact day was given in some portions of the article but not in others. A decision really needs to be made on this. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 21:13, August 5, 2014 (UTC)

Blood Status
Can we get a source for his blood status? I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, but it would still be nice to get a source.Allsevenbooks (talk) 05:03, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

Death date, AGAIN
A decision really needs to be made on this. There's just no way that Dumbledore died on the last day of June, since there was at least a week after that before the funeral and the train was held up from leaving so the students could pay their respects.

The OWLs take place over two weeks, from 7-17 June 1996 (so give or take a day or two for the following year). Ginny hadn't yet written her OWLs at the time of Dumbledore's death, meaning that it was sometime between, say, 1 June and 8 June, since we don't know for sure except that it was June and the OWLs hadn't yet happened.

This fits perfectly with Dumbledore's comment in the early draft of the sixth film about how he isn't sure if it's spring or summer. If it had been the last day of June, I think he'd know it was summer, and that the exams would be over at the time.

Maybe the Ministry confiscated the will when they came to the funeral at least a week after his death? That makes more sense to me. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 16:03, August 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * On second thought, I guess we're stuck saying he did die on the 30th. The Seven Potters takes place on 27 July; Harry got the newspaper with the interview on Skeeter's book that morning; in it, Betty Braithwaite says Dumbledore died four weeks ago. We can either take this literally as 28 days (which makes it the 30th, coinciding with what Hermione said in chapter seven), or as around that length of time (still around the 30th). --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 14:11, October 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * When does it say there's a week betwen the death and the funeral? Also, I thought Ginny was done with her exams before Dumbledore's death? General Ironbeak (talk) 03:58, December 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * There were at least a "couple of days", but they also visited the hospital wing twice a day, and enough time has passed for Harry to repetitively grow angry at mention of Snape, the weather to seem to mock them and Neville to make steady improvement between the death and the funeral. As for Ginny's exams, she was studying hard for the OWLs last we heard before Dumbledore's death, whilst sometime between the death and the funeral they had already been done.
 * None of that really matters anyways, because of a) the scene with the will, in which "the thirty-one days are up" and b) Braithwaite's comments in chapter two of Hallows, both of which clearly define Dumbledore's death-date as being the 30 June. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 04:45, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

Birth
Sorry my english is not specielt god but i have done my best

Hey every Potterheads out there There are a thing I had thinking a lot about. Is about when Albus Dumbledore was born. Because on harrypotter.wikia.com stands there that Dumbledore birth year was supposed to be in 1881.

It was there I was thinking how do they know that from, and it was from ´´Wizard of the Month`` it mean that J.K. Rowling say it. But j. k Rowling had also said in an interview that ´´Dumbledore was a sprightly 150`` and the actor Ciarán Hinds who played Aberforth “claimed” Dumbledore was 123 years old when he died. This would make his year of birth 1874.

So far. Now we have 3 theories, but none of them gives an explanation, how we knows dies dates.

But her comes my theory there explain the hole. Under Bill and Fleur's wedding at the 1st August 1997 dose Ron's great aunt Muriel says that she are 107. That’s mean she was born 107 before the wedding, that will mean in 1890. She also says to Elphias Doge and Harry Potter in the guise of Barny Weasley (translated verbatim from Danish) ´´But none of us there not was born back then, don’t know anything about`` about how Ariana died. It will say that Ariana died before Aunt Muriel was born in 1890. And we know that Ariana died when Albus Dumbledore was around 18 years old. It will say that Albus Dumbledore must have been born, minimum before 18 years 1890 thats mean that he must be born before or around 1872. Pz. Tell me what you think

Always  - Ian

Bump
Now, assuming the above calculations, that would make the headmaster 156 years old when he died. For the longest, we had him listed as being born in 1881. Which one is the accurate account for his birth? --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 11:00, December 19, 2014 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

Dumbledore's view on Voldemort:
I feel that the 'former student' view he had on Voldemort should be properly addressed on the 'relationships' part of the article. I mean, with Gellert Grindelwald safely behind bars in the wizarding prison of Nurmengard, Dumbledore was the most brilliant wizard around, having his skill and intellect viritually unmatch by any other living witch or wizard until Voldemort showed his true colours. Pretty frustrating, I'd reckon.

The point is that in the sixth book, we get a pretty good look on Dumbledore's view of Voldemort: A worthy opponent. He had certain expectations regarding his magical capability, and felt that he had been let down when the Dark Lord did not satisfy them.

In book one, Dumbledore informs McGonagall that:

"Voldemort had powers I will never have."

He informs Harry that:

"I knew that Voldemort’s knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power".

And, when he and Harry entered the Horcrux Cave in search for the locket, Dumbledore began to check out what magical protection the most powerful Dark Wizard of All Time had placed upon the place to guard his precious piece of soul, and upon discovering the use of blood magic, better known as 'weakness payment', he was negatively surprised, describing it as 'crude', sounding 'disdainful, even disappointed, as though Voldemort had fallen short of higher standards Dumbledore expected.'

This of course, implies that Voldemort's spell was neither as dark nor as rare/powerful/extraordinary as Dumbledore would have thought, as if he had hoped for more of a challenge.

I feel this should be addressed at the relationship section at the article, hopefully by someone with better English writing capabilities than myself.

- User:Simen Johannes Fagerli.

Photo Issue
The photo in character temple box is of a Ceiling fan. I don't know how to fix it. Zane T 69 (talk) 21:23, November 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * It was an act of vandalism. I've reverted the changes. - Nick O'Demus 22:12, November 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks. EDIT: Same problem in Relationships section for Harry Potter. Zane T 69 (talk) 22:30, November 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is back again. I've noticed it in this article and the Harry Potter(Person) article. Chris28bot (talk) 03:07, November 26, 2014 (UTC)

Actor
why dose he have a hairbow in his beard? SandyOwl89SandyOwl89 (talk) 22:40, December 22, 2014 (UTC)

Edit request
To be added to Behind the scenes:


 * J. K. Rowling has indirectly stated that, if Albus Dumbledore were to take a assessment, his personality type would be.

Blood status

 * The 7th book states that both of Albus's parents are magical. Can we edit the blood status to pure-blood?


 * Like Harry, Albus' mother was a muggle-born, which makes him a half-blood. - Nick O'Demus 00:00, May 2, 2015 (UTC)

Date of headmaster appointment
There is an evidence that Dumbledore became a headmaster in 1969-1970, not in 1956.

1) Several sources indicate that a year when Marauders became Hogwarts first year students is 1971 (the most definite is years of life on graves of James and Lily). And in HP and the prisoner of Azkaban, chapter 18, Lupin says "Before the Wolfsbane Potion was discovered, however, I became a fully fledged monster once a month. It seemed impossible that I would be able to come to Hogwarts. Other parents weren’t likely to want their children exposed to me. But then Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic." Lupin was born in 1960 and couldn't say that if Dumbledore became Headmaster in 1956.

2) Another fact which indirectly supports this theory is the scene of Tom Riddle's meeting with Dumbledore in HP and the Half-Blood Prince, chapter 20. Not only Tom says “I heard that you had become headmaster", the entire meeting looks like the declaration of war. And we know that Voldemort openly confronted magical Britain in 1970 - Dumbledore: "We've had precious little to celebrate for eleven years" (HP and the Sorcerer's Stone, chapter 1); Hagrid: "Anyway, this -- this wizard, about twenty years ago now, started lookin' fer followers" (HP and the Sorcerer's Stone, chapter 4).

It is important to note that this theory also has two weak points:

1) McGonagall states that she began teaching at Hogwarts in December 1956, so it's very likely that Dumbledore left the position of Transfiguration teacher. But if we assume that nobody lies and none of information above is mistaken, then professor Dippet should still be alive.

Possible explanation:  we know that Tom Riddle wanted to teach DADA. “I have returned, later, perhaps, than Professor Dippet expected... but I have returned, nevertheless, to request again what he once told me I was too young to have". Why did he come to Hogwarts only when benevolent Dippet was replaced by wary Dumbledore? It would be much more logical if he came knowing that DADA position was vacant, and Dumbledore becoming Headmaster is just an unfortunate coincidence. But what if it wasn't a coincidence? What if DADA teacher who left his position was none other than Dumbledore himself? That would explain the gap between 1956 and 1970. Something happened with DADA teacher in 1956 and Dumbledore, realizing that Tom will definitely get DADA position this time, took it himself to prevent that. It's not hard to imagine at all, given his talents.

2) If meeting with Dumbledore took place in 1970, then death of Hepzibah Smith happened in 1960, meaning that Tom worked for Borgin and Burkes for 15 years.

Possible explanation: even though Harry describes Tom as young, "young" is an elastic notion, and Dumbledore says that he "was no mere assistant" and "was soon given particular jobs" - that implies that he had time to prove himself. Hepzibah is definitely the special client - the kind that is worked up for years (note Hepzibah saying "he’s never been late yet", "They overwork you at that shop, I’ve said it a hundred times" and Harry noting that Tom "picked his way through the cramped room with an air that showed he had visited many times before"). Also, Tom appears to be an experienced seducer, and that kind of experience is usually gained when men are a bit older. If that is true, that's not a surprise he gave up his work at Borgin and Burkes in 1960. Given that Dumbledore took position of DADA in 1956, Tom already suspected that he won't be able to stay in Hogwarts peacefully after all, so he didn't need to monitor Hogwarts anymore, took the legendary trinkets he's been seeking and left England to search for Ravenclaw's diadem.

So I tend to believe that Dumbldore became Headmaster in approximately 1970, not in 1956. Even if that's not the case, that is a contradiction worth mentioning on "Dating conventions" page.

UchuuEngineer (talk) 20:49, June 6, 2015 (UTC)

Age?
I made a thread about this in the Wizengamot section and nobody payed any attention, so I'm just going to put it out here. Do we have an official age for him? J.K. has said over and over that he's 150, so the birthdate can't be taken as canon. I've changed this repeatedly but it keeps getting reverted. Argulor (talk) 22:09, January 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * If your edits keep getting reverted, don't revert them back. A better solution is to discuss it with the editor reverting your edits. Otherwise it results in edit wars, and sometimes even wiki sanctions. ―  C.Syde  ( talk &#124;  contribs ) 07:59, January 10, 2016 (UTC)

Table Of Contents Issue.
I was surfing the wiki due to boredom, and I say a collapsed table of contents. I clicked "show" it took me to the very top of the page. I don't know how to fix this, so can someone else fix it? Zane T 69 (talk) 22:49, June 27, 2016 (UTC)

When I checked page less than ten minutes later, it had fixed itself. Zane T 69 (talk) 22:53, June 27, 2016 (UTC)

Behind The Scenes (Dumbledore and Jiraiya)
In the "Behind the Scenes" section of this article, there is one last bullet point noting the similarities between Albus Dumbledore and Jiraiya from the series Naruto, which in this case is impertinent to the point of the Behind the Scenes section, which should be about the depictions of Dumbledore in different media. In my opinion the aforementioned bullet point should be removed as not only is it irrelevant, the similarities listed in the post are simply too general to even have a significant meaning unless the creator of the post is suggesting that J.K. Rowling herself took inspiration from Masashi Kishimoto who published his series three years after Rowling did.

Inuyana8 (talk) 22:17, July 14, 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree. It seems to be a pointless piece of trivia. We could probably make comparisons of Dumbledore to lots of different characters! Someone who is probably a fan of both characters probably thought if it was interesting them, it may be to others and added it! I cannot find any link between the two which says that Jo took inspiration from Naruto - you pointed out, it was published three years after Rowling published her first book, so Jo definitely didn't base Dumbledore on any characters from it and may not have even read Naruto! --May32 (talk) 22:29, July 14, 2016 (UTC)

Year Dumbledore became Headteacher

 * Hey! I stumbled across a piece of information which may change the year that Dumbledore became Headteacher.


 * The Wikia says the date was probably around 1957. This comes from the fact that in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 20, Dumbledore says that Voldemort visited him to ask for the Defence Against the Dark Arts job ten years after the murder of Hepzibah Smith, which itself occurred one or two years after Voldemort left Hogwarts in 1945. We know Dumbledore was not Headteacher at the time McGonagall started teaching at Hogwarts and she started teaching at Hogwarts in December 1956. Therefore, we came to the conclusion he became Headteacher around 1957.


 * However, one thing no one appears to have noticed is something said in the Prisoner of Azkaban. In Chapter 18, Lupin says he never thought he would be able to attend Hogwarts (“It seemed impossible that I would be able to come to Hogwarts”) but “then Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic. He said that, as long as we took certain precautions, there was no reason I shouldn’t come to school …”


 * Now, Lupin said then he became Headteacher which can only mean that Dumbledore didn't become Headteacher until some point in Lupin's childhood, because for a time, he didn't think he could attend Hogwarts until Dumbledore became Headteacher. It happened in Lupin's lifetime. Except, he wasn't born until March 1960, three years after we said Dumbledore became Headteacher.


 * Lupin became a werewolf at aged five. Then, there needs to be at least a year or two for him to get the idea he wouldn't be allowed to attend Hogwarts. Then Dumbledore became Headteacher and changed everything. I would say we need at least six or seven years for that to happen. Dumbledore would have therefore became Headteacher in around 1966.


 * Wondered what everyone's thoughts were? Thank you :)  --Kates32 (talk) 10:00, July 23, 2016 (UTC)


 * Very nice find! Continuing the quote from - "But then Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic. He said that as long as we took certain precautions, there was no reason I shouldn’t come to school." This has to be after the attack on Lupin in March 1965. We know that Voldemort comes back to ask Headmaster Dumbledore for the DADA job 10 years after Hepzibah Smith is killed but I don't think we have any evidence for how long Riddle worked for Borgin and Burkes at that point. Could it be that Riddle graduated 1945, travelled, worked for at least 10 years at Borgin and Burkes, kills Smith c. 1955, then returns to ask for the DADA job around 1965? Any one have evidence why this wouldn't work in the timeline? --Ironyak1 (talk) 17:01, July 23, 2016 (UTC)


 * I re-read the chapter and I think I have pieced something together.


 * Tom graduates in 1945. He would have been eighteen which is when he applied for the DADA job and Dippet told him he was too young.


 * "The next thing the staff knew, Voldemort was working at Borgin and Burkes" shortly after it is said in the Deathly Hallows that Tom went looking for Ravenclaw's Diadem. Maybe Tom didn't start working at Borgin Burkes until 1946. Nothing to say how long it was before he went to work there but it definitely can't have been more than a year.


 * The book doesn't say how much time went by before Tom met with Smith but he was still working in the shop since she tells him she thinks they "overwork you at that shop, I’ve said it a hundred times." Tom had visited Smith many times, so at least a few years went by. There is nothing to suggest only two years went by - could be more. Two days later she died.


 * The book does not state how much time had gone by before Voldemort returned to Hogwarts to enquire about teaching there, but it is noted "he was no longer handsome Tom Riddle". I don't know where the idea it had definitely been only ten years since he left school actually came from. I checked the other books (I have e-books) and it never says. He could have started working at Borkin and Burkes c. 1946, killed Smith c. 1950. Then went travelling for over ten years, delving into the Dark Arts which changed his appearance. Then returned to Hogwarts c. 1965/1966 when Dumbledore became Headteacher to enquire. It really could be around 1965/1966.


 * So it could work. This way it fits in with what Lupin said too. --Kates32 (talk) 10:00, July 23, 2016 (UTC)


 * Dumbledore says 10 years separates Hokey's memory and his own when Riddle makes his request, but we don't know how long it's been since Riddle left school. Strictly speaking, by using the Lupin quote we can only say Dumbledore became headmaster after Mar 1965 (Lupin's attack) and before 10 Mar 1971 (when Lupin would receive his acceptance letter) as we don't know if it took days, months, or years for Lupin to lose hope of attending Hogwarts or for the new Headmaster Dumbledore to discuss this with him.
 * As there are other events based on this date I think it's worth waiting to see if anyone can search out other details (hooray for ebooks ;) before making changes, but I think your discovery of this new date is correct :) --Ironyak1 (talk) 19:09, July 23, 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh I see that now, sorry! I searched for it by the search bar and it didn't show up! Rookie mistake. I read the rest of the chapter though :)


 * So Tom left school in 1945. By 1946, he was working at Borgin and Burkes. Some years later, he met with Smith and killed her. It was definitely more than two years since he left school by then. It may have been ten years making Smith's death around 1955/1956. Ten years later, he enquires about teaching at Hogwarts. It's c. 1965/1966 - around the same time Lupin says Dumbledore then became Headteacher.


 * I think it's definitely right. Lupin's quote is far more clear. The other way of working it out with Tom seems a bit more complicated and unclear anyway. Hopefully someone else will chime in though! --Kates32 (talk) 19:40, July 23, 2016 (UTC)

Changing the years
A note to say someone needs to change the year Dumbledore became Headteacher to between March 1965 and March 1971. It was agreed at Hepzibah Smith's talk page the previous year was wrong and so everyone has been changing any pages which need to be. The only page left to change is Dumbledore's. I would change it myself except the page is being protected. So anyone who can still change it only needs to make a few minor changes - a sentence in the biography, the occupation part of the infobox and the box under the references. I think it's best to change it today before we forget and get wrapped up in trying to deal with the new information from The Cursed Child we will be getting on Sunday. I have a feeling it's going to get a bit crazy when everyone starts trying to add things! I would greatly appreciate someone else changing this page if it cannot be unprotected for me to do it. Thank you! --Kates32 (talk) 10:18, July 26, 2016 (UTC)

Aura / Magical Detection
While it's clear that Dumbledore exercises some unique magical skills while retrieving the locket from the cave, it is never stated what this skill is. Any speculation about the skill and how it related to the wider world, such as it being Aurology as practiced in Korea, is therefore a note for the Notes and references section or a "Behind the scenes" topic, not as a fact in the article itself. --Ironyak1 (talk) 21:05, April 6, 2017 (UTC)
 * "Magic, especially Dark magic... leaves traces."  — Albus Dumbledore[src]
 * "An aura was a subtle field of magical energy surrounding a person, object, or place." - HP wikia.


 * It stopped being speculation and began being a fact the moment Rowling came up with the term "Aurologists". Per definition, "Aurology", which I take it is the proper name for the branch of magic studied by "Aurologists", is detecting "auras" of magic left behind where magic is/has been used actively. Based on context, it goes without saying an an aura and a trace is the same thing. Ninclow (talk) 21:21, April 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * But that definition of Aura isn't in a canon source anywhere (check your references), so you're connecting a non-canon definition to an event and then trying to say that has to be the only answer. MinaLima said they got to make-up much of the smaller newspaper articles in FB so the Aurologists most likely did not come from JKR. Dumbledore used some apparently unique method of detecting magic (at least to Harry), but to say how he did it is speculation that belongs in a ref or Behind the scenes comment. Perhaps you'll listen on this one and see the middle ground solution instead of going down the same path as in the past? --Ironyak1 (talk) 21:31, April 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'll have to disagree with you. Because, even IF you were right and the "Aurologists" from Korea who were to arrive in the USA to investigate "sninister auras" on the behest of MACUSA is the creation of MinaLima and not Rowling personally, it still became part of Rowling's universe the moment it was used in the movie. And as the policy of this wikia goes, everything from the movies is considered canon lest they are contradicted by higher canon, in this case, Rowling herself. And since she has yet to announce that there is no such thing, that means there is in fact master aurologists in wizarding Korea. The "sinister aura" is a reference to the activity of the Obscurus (though they had yet to realize the cause of the magical energy detected), and they are hired to investigate "aura" = "magical energy" = "trace" of whatever was behind said sinister aura to identify the cause. So yes, it is. Aura is mentioned in canon in tthe movie through the mention of aurologists and the reason for MACUSA to get them into the country for a consult, to identify the aura, and what did Dumbledore do in the cave? He sensed the  "trace"  = "magical energy" = "aura" left behind by Voldemort's defensive spells and identified its nature. Alas - Dumbledore used aurology, because per definition, what Dumbledore did and what the Master Aurologists did for a living was/is the same thing.  Ninclow (talk) 21:52, April 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm going to leave this for a bit and see what others think - perhaps in the meantime you can find the canon source that defines aura as you are using it and where on canon it says Dumbledore used this branch of magic (and not any other). --Ironyak1 (talk) 21:57, April 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * I think it is a very big leap to assume that Dumbledore studied and used the exact same method in HBP, based on information found in a film that may not have had Rowling's involvement. I get that it is part of the world until contradicted per the rule on the Wikia, but even from that view, it is still an assumption that Dumbledore was an Aurologist which is why it belongs in Behind the Scenes. -- Kates39 (talk) 22:07, April 6, 2017 (UTC)

For educational purposes, here's an article on how the newspapers for FB got made. "We were given maybe half a dozen main headlines to feature," MinaLima co-founder Miraphora Mina told INSIDER. "Everything else that’s on the rest of the paper, we have to create."

That's not to say that Aurologists are not canon for the wiki, but as it's not from JKR, it makes it even more unlikely that Aurologists has to be what she was thinking of over 10 years ago when writing. Just because it is one possible explanation does not make it the only one. --Ironyak1 (talk) 22:11, April 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * My source(s) is already stated, but I'll repeat them for your benefit if you want that. My first one is New York Ghost, and the other is how the Harry Potter wikia defines what an aura is.


 * I never said Dumbledore was an Aurologist, I said he knew and could use some of their skills by studying the branch of magic they specialize in. And to assume Dumbledore is using aurology to determine Voldemort's protections based on the definition of aurology is no bigger leap than for me to see a coffee cup on the floor and assume that someone either dopped it or that it fell down from the table.


 * In light of the creation of the study of Aurology being an official part of canon through the Fantastic Beasts movie and the fact that the nature of their work is consistent with what Dumbledore did in the sixth book, it's much more likely for Dumbledore to be using a branch of magic we know to be existing in canon but which Harry is unfamiliar with as opposed to using a personal kind of magic unique to him that just happen to be identical to how you define the work of an Aurologist. Ninclow (talk) 22:18, April 6, 2017 (UTC)


 * There is no definition of the work of an aurologist so to equate the two is just as you said - an assumption. Keep it in the Notes or Behind the scenes instead of stating it as a fact. --Ironyak1 (talk) 03:51, April 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * And if I say water is wet just by looking and checking the facts, is that an assumption too? Listen, I don't assume what an aura is, I describe it by defining it for what it is, based on the facts given us in canon. If you haven't grasped my reasoning for stating it as fact, feel free to read it again, perhaps you'll see it in a new light or something. Point is: Don't make edits just to satisfy your own dissatisfaction with what's there. If you want me to step back, raise my hands and leave this thing be, you need to take a close look at my arguments and outright tell me why I am wrong, why what I just wrote on that page doesn't add up. Until then, I have no reason to "take your side", as it were. Ninclow (talk) 12:10, April 13, 2017 (UTC)

Can you two do anything but argue? Ninclow -- provide CANON information for your edits and then they can stay. They might be reworded a bit to fit, but that often happens. Until then, stop with the edit war please? I know I'm not an admin on this wiki, but it makes it easier for all of us when we get along. --HarryPotterRules1 (talk) 13:24, April 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * The issue is that you ask for Canon info, Kates39 says Aurology is a stretch that belongs in Behind the scenes, I reword it to use a ref, ask for admin input, wait for a week, and yet still no change to the info. So I change it again, but nope it's changed back as the answer has to be aurology, regardless of what everyone else says, based on an made-up definition of aura that when I correct with attribution, is undone as well.
 * Until an admin weighs in there is unlikely to be any real resolution so this will probably pop-up occasionally until then. Getting along is a better approach, but it requires a willingness to find agreement. ---Ironyak1 (talk) 14:51, April 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * HarryPotterRules1 QQ&A: Can you two do anything but argue? I most certainly can. I'm told that I make one hell of a meal whenever family and freinds eats at my place and I've heard quite a few speak positively of my singing voice, but I take it that was a retorical question, so that's neither here nor there. :P Ninclow -- provide CANON information for your edits and then they can stay. I've presented nothing BUT canon information in my arguments, and if people see fit to ignore or otherwise miss out on that fact, it is not my fault, nor does it mean I'm wrong in this scenario.They might be reworded a bit to fit, but that often happens. Like how the aura page was "reworded" (aka changed completely) so that it wouldn't fit my arguments?  I don't mind things being reworded as long as the facts remains on the page. And to differate between Aurology and "magical detecion" when they are (based on the context "aura" and "master aurologists" was used) by definition the same thing is something I can't/won't stand behind. Until then, stop with the edit war please? I know I'm not an admin on this wiki, but it makes it easier for all of us when we get along. --
 * Another manner in which for us all to get along is for people not to try and be helpful by "suggesting" people they don't like are permanently banned and/or simply don't take conflicing opinions so personally.


 * Ironyak1 QQ&A: The issue is that you ask for Canon info, Kates39 says Aurology is a stretch that belongs in Behind the scenes,That she does, and it's a sentiments I'm inclined to disagree with. Why would her opinion be any more right than mine? In the light of how she gave no explonation as to why I'm wrong and it was a 'big leap', I mean? I reword it to use a ref, ask for admin input, wait for a week, and yet still no change to the info. So I change it again, but nope it's changed back as the answer has to be aurology, regardless of what everyone else says, based on an made-up definition of aura that when I correct with attribution, is undone as well. Merlin's beard! If we were to use your "reworded" edition, we might as well put the aura page up as a candidate for deletion right away, or perhaps we should create a page defining each and every word the "storyteller" of the HP books uses throughout the seven books to make sense of how Harry subjectively experiences his surroundings? Should I just go ahead and make a page for "Nervousness", going into detail of how examinations, girls and Professor McGonagall's strict gaze made Harry nervous?  Or "fear", telling about every instance Harry was scared and/or experienced a feeling of foreboding? Strictly speaking 95% of all the pages depict "made-up" concepts, so that makes for a poor counter-argument. In any case, from an in-universe perspective, "my" definition is as made up as house-elves or bowtruckles, considering I base the definition exclusively on canon informaion.  Until an admin weighs in there is unlikely to be any real resolution so this will probably pop-up occasionally until then. Getting along is a better approach, but it requires a willingness to find agreement.I have already said that I have no problem to "accept defeat" in this "war" should anyone bother to do some research and present to me facts I may have missed that goes against my reasoning. Until then, I, like you, will keep correcting what I deem incorrect information on the basis of knowing canon sources states otherwise.Ninclow (talk) 19:49, April 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * Ninclow - would you accept the results of a vote of fellow editors on whether Dumbledore used Aurology in the Horcrux cave? --Ironyak1 (talk) 19:54, April 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * There is no canon definition of what the word aura means. Rowling uses it sparingly to describe the magic that surrounds a place, person or object. I looked through the eBooks and found the word aura is used only six times.


 * The Mina Lima article mentions that there is a profession known as an Aurologist and that there are a group of people from Korea working in the field travelling to America. I stand by what I originally said. It is a big leap to say that means Dumbledore studied Aurology – both on his own and from master Aurologists no less! – based on that very short line tucked away in a newspaper that Rowling might not have even made.


 * That is then connected to something Dumbledore did in the sixth book, where the word aura is not used. Dumbledore says that magic leaves traces. Lots of characters say that. He then says he knows Tom Riddle. He knows how he works. The word detection is used, which is why the previous description of Magical Detection is more appropriate.


 * Magic has many branches. It works in many ways. There are many ways of defining what Dumbledore did and how he did it. You cannot narrow something down that definitively from something that small and vague until Rowling says anything more on the subject. The article is unrelated to Dumbledore and what he did in the sixth book . Are we supposed to take that every single person who detects an aura of any kind, has studied Aurology?


 * I think a vote may be a good idea. It seems to be the only way to resolve the issue! -- Kates39 (talk) 20:40, April 13, 2017 (UTC)

Or someone could just ask JK Rowling on twitter. She seems to treat her fan base well, and would likely answer. Zane T 69 (talk) 21:24, April 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * Ironyak1:


 * Had this been suggested from the getgo, then I most certainly would. With how things stand right now, however, probably not. It won't prove who's right and whose wrong, voting will only show the amount of people who'd share either of our opinions, and as we know, "majority" aren't necessarily a synonym for factual correctness. But if you can find a flaw or two in my arguments, I'd be only too happy to listen.


 * That being said...


 * "There is no canon definition of what the word aura means."


 * That's only partially correct. We have no outright definition, but we can conclude how to define it based on the context in which "aura" and "aurologists" was used. First off, let me remind you what kind of pressure MACUSA was under at the time.


 * First, "Aurors Dispatched Nationwide in Light of Exposure Crisis", showing how Aurors were called in from their usual Auror Divisions to the MACUSA to help sort out this problem, then "the newspaper read "Magical Disturbances Risk Wizarding Exposure" and "MACUSA on Maximum Alert", emphasizing the severity of the damage done "by whatever that was", both to property and secrecy. Even the International Confederation of Wizards was called upon for an "emergency meeting", which says quite a bit since their direct involvement are usually only required when the  a wizarding governing body is deemed incompetent or otherwise unable to maintain secrecy without help,  and is not something that just any wizarding head of states just seeks out light-heartedly. Even their own citizenry questioned the compentency of MACUSA, as seen in the headline of The New York Ghost that reads: " The Midwest Association of Warlocks and Witches Questioning MACUSA's Defence Efforts".


 * So we have established the stresses of the situation, now let's go back to that map.  I will repeat what Dumbledore says, " Magic always leaves traces ".


 * Within the MACUSA headquarters, as the script of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them states, that there is A metallic map of New York City [that] lights up to show areas of intense magical activity. If Credence's Obscurus was detected by said map after  its host lost control   when Seraphina Picquery sent off her Aurors to 'contain this', then it means that he would also be detected all the other times he lost control, even if the Aurors failed to catch him redhanded in his Obscurus form. There had been no documented cases of Obscuruses in the USA for two centuries, so how could they possibly know what to look for? All they knew was that something was on the loose, wreaking havoc. And since they had no answer to what caused the magical activity on the map, then the question on everybody's mind naturally became: "What is this perplexing sinister aura?". They did not know, and initially had no way of knowing, so what did they do? They saw to it that "Korean Master Aurologists [was] Drafted In For Conjecture". Because the map had allowed them to discover the magical activity, but whenever Credence turned back into his human form, their trail went cold, so they needed someone with the skills required to properly investigate. To visit the areas that had "known magic", in which the Obscurus had been active, to identify the nature of the "sinister aura" detected on that map in the Major Investigation Department. In short:


 * 1) Magic always leaves traces.


 * 1) The traces of magic left by the Obscurus lit up on the map.


 * 1) They knew where the magical trace came from, but not what it was.


 * 1) They called in Master Aurologists to clearify what caused the "preplexing sinister aura". Conclusion


 * 1) An "Aura" is, in magic, the name of the trace left behind by magical activity, and Aurologists study it.
 * Now, over to your next point.


 * I stand by what I originally said. It is a big leap to say that means Dumbledore studied Aurology – both on his own and from master Aurologists no less! – based on that very short line tucked away in a newspaper that Rowling might not have even made.


 * Based on the chain of reasoning above, no, it really isn't. It ISN'T a big leap. And whether Rowling made the headline or not is inconsequential, because it still fits perfectly, and even if she didn't, it's still a part of her universe until stated otherwise. And why on earth couldn't Dumbledore have read about the written works of Master Aurologists taught himself how to do some of it? Rowling says herself Dumbledore was mostly self-taught, even though he did have access to excellent teachers as a student.


 * That is then connected to something Dumbledore did in the sixth book, where the word aura is not used.


 * Yes it is, but not without good reason. The way "Aura" and "Aurologist" is used, the context in which they appear and what they do presents Aurology as a synonym of how Dumbledore found the hidden passage and discovered the magical defenses surrounding it in the sixth book. It fits too well, it connects all by itself.


 * Dumbledore says that magic leaves traces. Lots of characters say that.


 * My point exactly.


 * He then says he knows Tom Riddle. He knows how he works. The word detection is used, which is why the previous description of Magical Detection is more appropriate.


 * Point being? First off, the fact that "aura" isn't used only proves that Harry is a relatively inexperienced sixteen year old who are unaware that the traces left behind by magical activity is called an "aura", just like he was unaware the shadows of his parents that appeared after his and Voldemort's wands connected was called an "echo". Secondly, you confuse to quite different situations. For Harry and Dumbledore to encounter a secret passage disguised as a dead end and for the good professor to figure out the truth by examining the traces of magical activity in that part of the cave, is in no way the same as Dumbledore standing by the shores, looking out on the water onto the island on which the Horcrux OBVIOUSLY had been placed and think "If I was Tom, how would I wanted to get across?"


 * Of course Dumbledore would use words like "detecting" traces of magic. Why would he speak of such obscure concepts as "aurology" when Harry had no way of knowing what on earth that was? Doesn't it make much more sense for Dumbledore to simplify it, giving a partial answer to satisfy Harry's curiousity instead of elaborating on a piece of magic foreign to the teenager? I mean, to call "Legilimency" for "mind reading" is not ideal since there's more too it, but I sure would call it "mind reading" if someone asked me and I was not in a position that gave me the luxury of time to give a detailed lecture.


 * Magic has many branches. It works in many ways. There are many ways of defining what Dumbledore did and how he did it.


 * There is? I've not seen one other plausable explonation of what on earth he did in that cave to discover the secret passage OTHER than him tracing the reminder of magical activity previously used there. Humour me. Oh, just ignore Dumbledore entering the place, going quiet and saying: "This place has known magic", I'm sure that's totally unrelated to what he was doing. But please, humour me.


 * You cannot narrow something down that definitively from something that small and vague until Rowling says anything more on the subject.


 * I both can and I will. Those two things of canon material fits together too well to just be some random coincidence.


 * The article is unrelated to Dumbledore and what he did in the sixth book.


 * And that claim is backed up by which merits?


 * Are we supposed to take that every single person who detects an aura of any kind, has studied Aurology?


 * No, we are supposed to take that every single purpose capable of detecting traces left behind of magical activity has to some degree studied Aurology. "Aura", broadly speaking can be many things, but "aura" in magic, not so much.


 * Or someone could just ask JK Rowling on twitter. She seems to treat her fan base well, and would likely answer. - Zane T 69 


 * Excellent suggestion. Maybe we could ask and link her this discussion?


 * Ninclow (talk) 23:23, April 13, 2017 (UTC)


 * Look, I am just going to leave the argument for now. It has gone beyond a constructive debate. I have said my piece, as have a couple of other people, but you really don’t want to budge and will reach to find a problem with every single thing we say. Even a compromise that we suggested earlier to put it in Behind the Scenes and reword the article slightly to reflect your reasoning has done nothing. Everyone is supposed to work together to reach a consensus - a middle ground! Let leave it up to a vote, and maybe Rowling will reply. -- Kates39 (talk) 23:38, April 13, 2017 (UTC)

'''Even a compromise that we suggested earlier to put it in Behind the Scenes and reword the article slightly to reflect your reasoning has done nothing. ''' Because there is no difference to be found between Dumbledore's method of locating the secret passage in the Horcrux cave and what an "Aurologist" does for a living as per the definition I made based on the context in which the latter appear. '''Everyone is supposed to work together to reach a consensus - a middle ground! Let leave it up to a vote, and maybe Rowling will reply.''' A consensus is not a "middle ground", it is "general agreement". And I may sound arrogant now, and if so, I do apologize, but one should think that if no one can look on my chain of reasoning and tell me why I am wrong, that people would agree that what I say makes some sense and do indeed sound as correct as I'm convinced it is. Ninclow (talk) 23:56, April 13, 2017 (UTC)
 * Look, I am just going to leave the argument for now. It has gone beyond a constructive debate. I have said my piece, as have a couple of other people, but you really don’t want to budge and will reach to find a problem with every single thing we say. Listen, if there were no holes in Ironyak1's logic for me to point out, I would naturally have praised their ability of making sense of something on which had clearly been in wrong, but people keep saying I'm wrong without being able to give a reason for why that is. If someone present an arguments that don't add up, then of course I will do my utmost to explain why I don't think that their arguments add up. That's how a debate works, after all.


 * Maybe just flat out ask JK Rowling if Dumbledore can sense magic. Your debate is quite lengthy. EDIT: I don't use twitter so someone else will have ask. Zane T 69 (talk) 01:41, April 14, 2017 (UTC)

Clearly Dumbledore can sense magic - the question is whether or not this must have been done with Aurology. Here is my tweet to JKR; however, me and thousands of other people a day tweet at her without a response so I'm not holding my breath this time either.

Here is a vote on the issue to see if there is consensus.

Did Albus Dumbledore use "teachings of learned Master Aurologists" to "sense, recognize and identify the traces left behind by magic" in the horcrux cave.

No

 * 1) --Ironyak1 (talk) 02:00, April 14, 2017 (UTC) (It's a COULD BE possibility, not a MUST BE fact - put it in a Note or Behind the scenes)
 * 2) He could have learned it anywhere, and we don't know if it's Aurology or a similar, but other magic.--Rodolphus (talk) 06:38, April 14, 2017 (UTC)
 * 3) There is only a chance, it is not a fact yet, so in Behind the Scenes or a note is more appropriate. -- Kates39 (talk) 09:08, April 14, 2017 (UTC)

Comments

 * In addition to the fact that the vote don't prove anything, I've already allowed myself to fall short of my own higher standards and partially denied an obvious fact to reflect the public opinion, so the voting is a waste of time. Ninclow (talk) 14:30, April 14, 2017 (UTC)
 * After a week, all votes are No. With a 3 vote majority, I will be changing the article to reflect the consensus here. --Ironyak1 (talk) 06:39, April 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * HAHAHAHAHAHA! Ninclow (talk) 09:49, April 21, 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I'm late for the discussion. Either way, there seems to be no evidence linking Dumbledore's magical detection method and this Korean Aurologists business (which is vague enough as it is). Ninclow's whole argument is a large appeal to ignorance fallacy (and, as I often do, I turn to the old aphorism: the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence -- who's to say Dumbledore wasn't using another magical technique, one that we don't know anything about, and that is different to the Korean Aurologists thingy, to detect Voldemort's magic?).
 * That said, the vote has no validity since, by definition, we can't vote to decide canon. Either way, per the above, the fallacious deduction has no place in the article (except, perhaps, in the "Behind the scenes" section). --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 14:36, April 23, 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input, even if fashionably late ;) While I agree voting on such a matter is silly, I was at a loss on how to resolve the issue when one person was wholly convinced of their own views and willing to engage in a edit war to prove it. As this has been an ongoing issue with a few editors, how do you suggest handling future situations in a timely matter that doesn't rely on an admin to be the authoritive interpretor? Currently the system favors those most willing to hit the undo button leading to a proliferation of fringe or altogether wrong information. Thanks --Ironyak1 (talk) 16:10, April 23, 2017 (UTC)


 * I must say that admins should not be seen as authoritative interpreters -- if anything, they may act as impartial moderators, if they're not a part of the discussion. Either way, the burden of proof falls on the one who makes the claim. Ninclow's statement of "I've not seen one other plausable explonation of what on earth he did in that cave..." (sic) pretty much establishes the logical fallacy (which is especially flagrant, once we consider that neither him or any of us are significantly knowledgeable on the subject of magical theory -- if only we'd paid more attention in Charms class!).
 * The only way to resolve such issues is, I'm afraid, to just keep arguing until reasonable doubts are eliminated (and this was nowhere near the case) -- and to report to an admin if an edit war breaks out. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 17:21, April 23, 2017 (UTC)


 * I agree that admins should not be the authoritative interpreters (you & the oft-missed Starstuff seem to be the only ones who weigh in at all). However, the pragmatics are that if one person is unwilling to listen to anyone else, only admins have the authority to bring the argument to a close. For ~3 weeks Dumbledore has been said to have studied Aurology because all attempts by other editors to fix this were undone and all efforts at dialogue and compromise went unheard. It seems to me that under these circumstances, forcing an edit war is the only way to bring the issue to a head, or having to accept all sorts of nonsense to be posted for days or weeks until the original poster gives up; both of which seem to be a poor system of resolution. However, if burden of proof falls on the person making the claim, then removing it from the page until that burden is met seems to be necessary so that is what I'll do. Thanks --Ironyak1 (talk) 18:00, April 23, 2017 (UTC)