SPOILER: A mistaken assumption?

The article on this site for the "Order of the Phoenix" states that Dumbledore founded the organization in the 1970's. But is it older, much older? Flamel opens a padlocked book with a PHOENIX on the cover. Inside are picture frames with names under them. They are all empty except for one. Flamel then uses this book to talk to the witch who urges him to go to the cemetery and that WE have faith in you. Also remember that Dumbledore said to Harry, "Members of the Order of the Phoenix have more reliable methods of communication than the fire in Dolores Umbridge's office." Everyone thought that meant the "talking patronus", but what if we saw that "more reliable method" in this movie?

(Edited by Wva)

Hogwarts is life 16·11/20/2018

You have facts

Cleo Riddle Black·11/20/2018

yeah this boi know what they talking about

(Edited by Cleo Riddle Black)

Cleo Riddle Black·11/20/2018

(Edited by Cleo Riddle Black)

NatalieHufflepuff·11/20/2018

That’s really impressive that you know that! Wow, you’re well informed

Ironyak1·11/20/2018

I think this is a compelling theory! I've added the basics to the "Behind the scenes" section of the new article regarding the book, but please feel free to correct or expand!

Nicolas Flamel's phoenix-embossed bookHarry Potter Wiki

North-West Mage·11/20/2018

Maybe this isn't the Order of the Phoenix as we know it, but rather an early gathering of witches and wizards which formed the basis of the Order. These witches and wizards are educators and researchers (Dumbledore teaches at Hogwarts, Hicks at Ilvermorny and Flamel is an alchemist). It could just be the gathering of great minds that Dumbledore has banded together for advice - his inner circle of friends.

Wva·11/20/2018

There is something that has always bothered me about the Order of the Phoenix as it was previously understood. In the early 70's, Albus was Headmaster of Hogwarts, Voldemort was a threat, people were being killed, disappearing, no one could trust anyone else .... and Albus had the time and put in the effort to create a fairly elaborate organization from scratch? I believe we hear of people being "inducted" into the Order, apparently there were formal rules that prevented Fred and George from joining, again that seems awfully formal to be created in such turbulent times. It seems too much like kids at play rather than people facing a mortal threat. Sure, there was Dumbledore's Army, but that name was created almost as a joke after about five seconds of thought. There were also the Death Eaters but Voldemort had decades to create that.
So go back to the Order of Merlin. According to Rowling this was created by Merlin - of course - and was an organization intended to help protect muggles from wizards. We know at some point this Order as an organization ceased to function and became just an award given out by the Ministry of Magic. OK. So what happened to those who were members of the original Order of Merlin who believe in protecting muggles? The need certainly didn't go away and I highly doubt they just all gave up and went home. What if those who remained created the Order of the Phoenix? What if it is hundreds of years old? We assume the order was named after Fawkes, but what if it was the other way around? What if Fawkes came and Albus' patronus was a phoenix because of the Order?
Compare how "Order of the Phoenix" and "Dumbeldore's Army" are used in Half Blood Prince and the books after that. DA is rarely used by Harry, Ron, and Hermione in normal conversation, they use the normal pronouns "we" and "us." But in HBP, in Grimmauld Place in particular, the adults talk about the Order when it would have been just as natural to use "we" and "us." Go and re-read the chapter "Order of the Phoenix" in HBP. To me that strongly suggests that the Order existed as an organization above and beyond what was presented in the Harry Potter series.
A theory, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense.

Cephalon Carstairs·11/20/2018

It's not the other way around. Dumbledore didn't derive his Patronus from the Order. The phoenix is the symbol of the Dumbledore family, just as the raven is the symbol of the Lestrange family, and the snake is the symbol of Slytherin and his descendents. Many of Dumbledore's ancestors had phoenixes because they sense Dumbledore blood and bond to it, just like the dragons and the Targaryens in ASoIaF. The Order of the Phoenix may have called itself a "secret" society, but it was well known that it existed. We would know if the Order was hundreds of years old. I can see maybe it being 70 years old, and Albus formed an impromptu organization during Grindelwald's reign of terror, but not any earlier than that, and he would've dissolved it after his defeat in 1945. It's not a permanent organization, it was formed to defeat Voldemort, and when they succeeded after the First Wizarding War, it was dissolved and later reconstituted for the Second Wizarding War, and although it was not explicitly stated, it was likely dissolved again after his permanent defeat. There is no need for a permanent organization since the Ministry has the Department of Magical Law Enforcement and other internals. Merlin created the Order of Merlin because these government resources were not available or in short supply back in the Middle Ages. The O.M. award was instituted by the Ministry to continue to honor great sorcerers after the job of the original organization was no longer necessary.

Flora0001·11/20/2018

Wow. This is deep. No comment, you’ve said everything!

Cephalon Carstairs·11/20/2018

I agree, @Good Wizard of the North-West. Torquil Travers even says himself that he knows that Dumbledore has a large circle of informants and friends, but he makes no mention of the Order. During Grindelwald's campaign, these friends may have formed an impromptu organization, but this is not the real Order. They even state in The Philosopher's Stone that Dumbledore was a longtime friend of Nicholas Flamel. He was an ally and an informant, but I think that is all.

What do you think?