Talk:Bewitched sleep

I would suggest renaming this to "Sleeping Charm", a name given in the Wizard's Challenge capitalised like so, and thus a canon name for the charm. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 02:35, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

• For those who wondering: This article is about bewitched sleeping in general rather than about one specific spell. --RogueOwner (talk) 18:14, April 28, 2020 (UTC)

This article is not about magically induced sleep in general, but a specific charm with this name. It is clearly depicted as a separate spell in Harry Potter: Hogwarts Mystery, so this article should be written as such. --RedWizard98 (talk) 17:00, May 13, 2020 (UTC)

The separate spell in Hogwarts Mystery is called the Sleeping Charm, with its own separate article. This article is about magically induced sleep in general, an effect that can be caused by the specific Sleeping Charm depicted in HM, but also by other magical means. Sirius (talk) 21:24, June 19, 2020 (UTC)

Well put, Sirius. :-) Tfoc (talk) 21:35, June 19, 2020 (UTC)

The icon for this spell (as shown on this page) is not the Sleeping Charm, it is a specifically named spell called "Bewitched Sleep" which can be learned in the game, and used in duelling for example. If this article should be about magical sleep in general, why does it have a spell infobox, and a specific hand movement shown which is also different to the one for the sleeping charm. The statements above ignore this is in fact an individual charm, which is very similar to but different from other sleeping spells. This is a big confusion, as this is not how spell articles are written. --RedWizard98 (talk) 01:22, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Good point. I removed the spell infobox. Tfoc (talk) 02:52, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Do not remove infoboxes on your own liking, as that is actually vandalism.--RedWizard98 (talk) 04:27, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

I don't play the game, but if the bewitched sleep indeed has a sperate wand movement etc, I'd definetely consider it a seperate spell. --Rodolphus (talk) 06:05, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

I also don't play the game, but the Sleeping Charm article describes the Sleeping Charm as the spell used in the game; surely there aren't two different spells in the same game that do the exact same thing? Sirius (talk) 09:55, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

This article was once written as being the spell that Dumbledore used to knock out Hermione, Ron, Cho and Gabrielle in order to place them at the bottom of the Black Lake for the second triwizard task. From what I know so far, the Sleeping Charm is exclusive to Hogwarts Mystery, but 'bewitched sleep' is not. Sirius (talk) 10:04, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

First off, I didn't remove the infobox "on my own liking", I removed it as not to mislead those who read the article. With all due respect, RedWizard, you were the one who said "if bewitched sleep isn't a spell, why is the infobox there?", I simply edited it in accordance with the point you made. If you believe that is vandalism, I don't know what to tell you, except perhaps that you should look up the actual definition for "vandalism", look at my edit and fact-check how the two corresponds to one another. 

Also, Sirius, the term "bewitched sleep" appears exactly two times in the fourh book.

One of the best things about the aftermath of the second task was that everybody was very keen to hear
details of what had happened down in the lake, which meant that Ron was getting to share Harry's
limelight for once. Harry noticed that Ron's version of events changed subtly with every retelling. At first,  he gave what seemed to be the truth; it tallied with Hermione's story, anyway - Dumbledore had put all
the hostages into a bewitched sleep in Professor McGonagall's office, first assuring them that they would
be quite safe, and would awake when they were back above the water. One week later, however, Ron
was telling a thrilling tale of kidnap in which he struggled single-handedly against fifty heavily armed
merpeople who had to beat him into submission before tying him up.
"But I had my wand hidden up my sleeve," he assured Padma Patil, who seemed to be a lot keener
on Ron now that he was getting so much attention and was making a point of talking to him every time
they passed in the corridors. "I could've taken those mer-idiots any time I wanted."
"What were you going to do, snore at them?" said Hermione waspishly. People had been teasing her
so much about being the thing that Viktor Krum would most miss that she was in a rather tetchy mood.
Ron's ears went red, and thereafter, he reverted to the bewitched sleep version of events.

It's not a specific spell, that's a misconception. And book four outrank Hogwarts Mystery. Tfoc (talk) 14:09, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

RedWizard - you seem to be in the habit of labelling any edit you disagree with as "vandalism" as a means of shouting down the opposition. This needs to stop.-- 15:36, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Removing infoboxes, I'm sorry to say is vandalism, so I shall restore them. --RedWizard98 (talk) 16:04, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

A well meaning edit (of any nature) is never vandalism. You both disagree on what information the article should present so you should discuss it. Calling someone a vandal because they've done something you disagree with is not okay. - 16:09, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

I think we need a source provided for the hand movement image in the infobox, as it would seem to imply that this is a specific spell. Sirius (talk) 15:37, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

I can't say I have looked deep into the subject, but if the above excerpt from Goblet of Fire is all evidence there is to say this isn't a specific spell, it is very flimsy. Calling it "a bewitched sleep" does not imply it's not a specific spell. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 15:41, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

The hand movement image comes from Hogwarts Mystery, as seen here. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 15:43, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire might not explicitly say this is an individual spell, but Harry Potter: Hogwarts Mystery does, which is a credible source. The spell can be learned in a special Charms event, which is stated in the HM article. It is also worth nothing the wand movement is clearly different from the one given for the Sleeping Charm. --RedWizard98 (talk) 16:04, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Again, why would there be two different spells in the same game that do the exact same thing? Sirius (talk) 16:27, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Well spells can have very similar effects to each other and still be separate.--RedWizard98 (talk) 16:31, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

First off, I'd like to extend my graditude towards our diligent wiki staff for their swift action in helping us resolve this. :-)

That said, I think it might be my explanation that was flimsy, not the point I am trying to make in and by itself. I am not saying that Dumbledore did not use a specific spell to put Ron and Hermione to sleep, I am saying that the title of this article, "bewitched sleep," were in fact denoting the effect of an unidentified spell from the fourth book, not the spell itself. Also, the writers of HM is pretty lazy; there are whole sentences and bits of paragraphs taken word for word from this wikia and just inserted into character dialogue when summerising or describing canon information becomes necessary for the narrative, so regardless of whatever wand movement they made for some "Bewitched Sleep" spell they made in the game, the point is that they simply included a misconception we made into the game, making it invalid. The term "bewitched sleep", as used in tier-one canon, does not refer to a spell, but it's usage.

It is sort of like when Ted Lupin found out from Harry that the Death Eaters knew he was being moved:

Ted Tonks looked up at the ceiling as though he could see through it to the sky above. "Well, we know our protective charms hold, then, don't we? They shouldn't be able to get within a hundred yards of the place in any direction."

When Ted says "protective charms", he does not identify the spells used, he identified what the spells used was for. So bewitched sleep isn't a spell, it's the result of a spell, and there are about a handful like the one he used on Ron and Hermione, making the term "bewitched sleep" equivalent to the term "protective enchantments." I suggest that we make a whole new article specifically for Dumbledore's spell, whether we call it "Sleeping spell" or "Albus Dumbledore's (unidentified) sleeping spell" and add it to the list I compiled on the page. Tfoc (talk) 16:21, June 20, 2020 (UTC) 

That is all fair, but the game does provide a different icon, name and wand movement for what is called the "Bewitched Sleep". It doesn't matter if this spell is similar to other sleeping spells (Gormlaith's curse and the "Sleeping Charm), many spells are extremely similar to each other based on their effects.--RedWizard98 (talk) 16:31, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

And as I have said, I think, perhaps thrice now, based on the age of the article "Bewitched sleep", and based on when the game HM introduced "Bewitched Sleep" as a spell, it would appear they simply looked up the term on this wiki and simply added the misconception in the article to their game. And apparently, they realized their blunder and is trying to rectify it, because now they introduced the "Sleeping Charm" with the exact same effect, right? Tfoc (talk) 16:38, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

But do you have evidence (a source) for that the game developers dropped this spell completely and instead renamed it as something else? --RedWizard98 (talk) 16:41, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

(Edit conflict.) I can see the argument, but I don't think there's a need to distinguish between the spell seen in Hogwarts Mystery and the one mentioned in Goblet of Fire. Since they use the exact same term and seemingly have the same effect, it's pretty reasonable to assume they are meant to be the same. That said, I agree that some other instances of sleeping spells seem to be subtly different than this, and probably should be considered different spells (i.e. Gormlaith's spell is described as "a powerful curse", which makes it seem a tad different).

I wouldn't oppose to create a umbrella article covering this and all other spells that seem to produce magical sleep very much like the "protective enchantments" one Tfoc mentioned (something along the lines of "magically-induced sleep" or something). --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 16:44, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Several spells (and not to forget potions) can magically induce sleep, but there isn't a given name for a branch of magic that revolves around sleep, although there probably might be one. I don't think articles should be speculative but instead focus on the subject at hand. The name "Bewitched sleep" might seem generic in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, but HM does depict as its own spell and not an umbrella term for sleep magic. --RedWizard98 (talk) 16:48, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Is there any way to retrieve posts in editing? I spend like fifteen minutes trying to respond here, and when I FINALLY get to click "Publish", someone posted in the meantime, and I lose all of it. That's happened TWICE now. 

Red, again, for the last time, because I get tired of repeating myself: It DOES - NOT - MATTER if HM depict it as its own spell and not an umbrella term for sleep magic, because a higher source of canon DOES, and HM just repeated a misconception that WE published on this wiki in the first place. Also - it isn't speculation, it's categorisation. Just like calling a grouping of defensive spells "protective enchantments" is a categorisation. There's no "official name" for the "branch of magic" - and I would contend that making people fall asleep isn't a branch of magic, it's a usage of magic that can fit into different branches of magic, like sleepwalking curse and Gormlaith's curse both falling under the branch of magic called Dark Magic, and the Sleeping Charm falling into the branch of magic known Charms - it's just a grouping of spells categorised by virtue of common characteristics.

Mr. Cooper: I think we can safely dismiss the "Bewitched Sleep" as a spell in HM. I just found out that apparently it was put into the game just to add greater variety to the game mechanics of the dueling club, but within the actual narrative itself, we never put anyone to sleep by wand and incantation before a year 6 SQ, which is when we learn to do it. That's when the Sleeping Charm was introduced. I believe we ought to seperate game mechanics from the story as much as possible in the interest of maintaining the prevailing, in-universe perspective on the wiki's articles. Also, the "Bewitched Spell" momentarily puts the opponent in a short-lived slumber that they wake up from almost immediately, whereas Dumbledore's spell renders the subject in a state almost like suspended animation, and they do not breathe for the duration of the spell, allowing them to be in water without drowning. Sounds a tad bit more complex that whichever spell the Main Character use, I think. Also - "Magically-indiced sleep?" I mean - that's for the staff to decide, I suppose, but I can't say I understand why we should have to make up a term when we have one from canon to use.. Tfoc (talk) 17:29, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

The exact effects of the spell in HM duels can be different in length (as with the Full-Body Bind Curse and Stunning Spell) but that does not mean they are different spells. Game-play mechanics often have their own rules. But still, where is the official source which states that this spell is not specific in HM? --RedWizard98 (talk) 18:30, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

If there isn't any official evidence from the game that this spell is not specific, I really think this article should be reverted to its old form because I see no official source which states that bewitched sleep is an umbrella term. This is all purely speculative. --RedWizard98 (talk) 19:28, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Did you scroll down? When a person publishes while your editing, you should scroll down the page that pops up and you will find your edit to copy and paste.

Since the books are highest canon and they used the uncapitalised words "bewitched sleep", then it shouldn't be changed by the wiki. So, the name shouldn't be changed. It can't be proven that the Harry Potter: Hogwarts Mystery version of the spell was the exact one used in the book, even if a person thought it appears to be and changed the article to say so. Like Tfoc stated above, they do appear to have differences.

Could we not have a new, capitalised page, Bewitched Sleep? And keep "Bewitched sleep" solely about the book version to avoid any confusion? You could note any connections and differences in Behind the Scenes. - Kates39 (talk) 17:50, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Why is it that when I am explaining something to you, Red, it goes in one ear and out the other? As I believe I've said at least twice, maybe thrice now, Jam City is copying wiki content for HM, so because we got it wrong, HM got it wrong. Now, for the fifth time, STOP appealing to HM or asking for HM-related sources. The books outrank HM, and HM and the fourth book are in conflict about what the concept of "bewitched sleep" refers to, so guess which one comes out on top? I would still like to try and persaude Seth Cooper and the other admins to let me make the necessary changes to the page for it to describe "bewitched sleep" as a concept/umbrella term before we go ahead making a whole new page for magically-induced sleep when this one would do just fine, since in the book, it just denoted the act of being put to sleep with a spell as opposed to referencing to the spell that did it in the first place. If I made a new page called "Albus Dumbledore's sleeping spell", or "Unidentified sleeping spell", why would that be so horrible? 

Also, hello, Kates, sorry, didn't see you there. Forgot to say hello earlier. ^^' Tfoc (talk) 20:29, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

I have read your points, I just personally disagree with them, as I think they are pure speculation. You haven't given a source which states that this isn't a specific spell, and nor for one that there is a defined branch of magic dedicated to sleep.

Article pages are not pages in which numerous different opinions and contradictory evidence are presented as "ideas", but where precise sources are used to define things, sources I have yet to see. A source also isn't an idea or assumption, it comes from a canon source itself, whether it be a book, film, video game or other published material. --RedWizard98 (talk) 20:36, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

"Pure speculation" - I made an edit you disagreed with, I'm a vandal, I point out that Jam City is actually copying material from the wikia and using it in the game, and therefore, I reject your usage of the game as a source on this specific issue, and it is "speculation," and now here I am, wondering if you even know what those words mean?

But to address what you said here: At no point, and in no way, shape or form, did I even remotely say that bewitched sleep was "a branch of magic", because it isn't. It's the effect of a unindentified spell Dumbledore performed in the fourth book. As, however, we now have a handful of different spells, all of which places the victim in a magically-induced sleep, I simply grouped them all together, I categorised them based on the characteristics they shared. That's not me being 'speculative', that's me desperately trying to do my part to keep the wiki neat and organised, and you, for some reason that is entirely beyond the scope of my understanding, seem determined to not let that happen. Tfoc (talk) 22:50, June 20, 2020 (UTC)

Goblet of Fire does not use the term "bewitched sleep" as an umbrella term for sleep magic, though, mind, so it is inaccurate to say it does. My suggestion to keep such a hub-article about sleep-related magic under a different, conjectural name, was meant precisely to keep it from being misleading (as if we knew they're all the same thing; when presumably they aren't at all).

Call me slow, but I still haven't understood why you think the appearance of this "bewitched sleep" in Hogwarts Mystery is contradictory with higher-tier canon? --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 23:04, June 20, 2020 (UTC)