Date of birth[]
Elfrida Clagg and Elfrida Cragg are really not the same character? Andre G. Dias (talk) 11:05, March 2, 2014 (Brazil)
This is a valid question. What do you others think? WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 17:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
- It's probably the same person. However, Rowling has never clarified or fixed it. - Kates39 (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
Well, if we're working under the assumption that they're the same person as opposed to distant relatives holding the same position in their allotted lifetimes, then wouldn't canon be best served in seeing the more recent source as a retcon of the older one? WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 20:49, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- The two individuals are likely the same person, but because this issue has never been answered by Rowling or any other official source, they should be treated separately for the time being, which is what Kates39 explained above. RedWizard98 (talk) 21:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
So we should make a second Elfrida Clagg page, then? "Elfrida Clagg (14th century)" and "Elfirda Clagg (17th century)". WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 22:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
- Uh what? Who is Elfrida Clagg (14th century)? - MrSiriusBlack Talk 00:01, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
One would think an ancestor of Elfirda Clagg (17th century). WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 00:11, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes but where on earth have you produced her from? What source? What are you talking about? - MrSiriusBlack Talk 12:51, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Oh, now I see! Sorry, I'm not actually saying that there's two witches that's related by the name of Elfrida Clagg who headed the Wizards' Council; I am talking about this discrepancy in when Elfrida Clagg is supposed to have been alive and headed the Wizards' Council, and how the wiki should handle it. One source says she headed it in the fourteenth century, and one says she headed it in the seventeenth century, and now this in-universe article says "she lived in either or". Which makes little sense, since the article's supposed to be in-universe.
If we work under the assumption that there's only one Elfrida Clagg and Rowling made a mistake because "math", then wouldn't the most recent source work as a retcon of the old one about when she was active in politics? If we assume they're not one and the same due to the apparently conflicting sources, shouldn't we actually have had two pages named "Elfrida Clagg", and then made a note about the conflicting sources in the BTS. If we're not meant to make any assumptions at all, shouldn't we then remove all years and dates in this article over to the BTS section and keep the article itself as ambiguous as possible? WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 15:39, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Ah. So you randomly changed topic mid-conversation without starting a new section. Got it. No wonder I was confused. I believed we were still talking about the Elfrida Clagg-Elfrida Cragg confusion, which is what this section was originally about (despite the section heading being 'date of birth', which is nothing to do with Cragg...yes, very confusing.)
- Anyway, I have now checked the sources, and yeah this is a tricky one. One first-tier canon source (the old 'Wizard of the Month' feature of J. K. Rowling's website) describes an Elfrida Clagg as living from 1612 to 1687, and another first-tier canon source (the original Fantastic Beasts companion book) describes her succeeding a Burdock Muldoon who was known to be chief of the council in the 14th century. Burdock Muldoon's article however, says he was only alive in the 15th century, specifically 1429 - 1490. Muldoon's article gives two references for these years; the first one is from the PS video game, a third-tier canon source that we would obviously disregard if that was the only reference, however the second reference is an image apparently from Pottermore (however this image is completely unreadable/unloadable and I have absolutely no idea why it is in current use as a reference image), a first-tier canon source. Yes obviously the out-of-universe explanation is that Rowling has royally messed up big time here, however from an in-universe point of view...well, it looks like we have two options:
- Option A: Disregard the information from the companion book due to being contradicted by more recent canon sources (as done with *that* McGonagall retcon), in which case the in-universe parts of Muldoon and Clagg's articles would say that they were council chiefs in the 15th and 17th centuries respectively, and the mentions of 14th century and Clagg immediately succeeding Muldoon relegated to their respective 'behind the scenes' sections, leaving us with further work to do deciding what to do with the rest of the information about them from the companion book that aren't related to the dates.
- Option B: Two Burdock Muldoons and two Elfrida Claggs.
- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ - MrSiriusBlack Talk 16:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
No, I did not "randomly changed topic mid-conversation without starting a new section", I was responding to the other people posting in the discussion. If you look above, first Andre G. Dias asked if they were the same, and I bumped his question. Then Kates39 replied that they probably were, and I said; "Well, if that's the take on it we're working with, shouldn't the latest source for what century she's heading the Wizards' Council retcon the former?".
Then RedWizard98 came along and seemed to think we weren't working under that assumption, so I shifted to that perspective and said that okay, in that case, maybe we should split it into two articles. Then you joined, and when I realized you were unsure what I made, I clarified it. And the conflicting sources of what century she was established to be alive and whether or not we're talking about one character or two different ones are both kind of relevant to her date of birth, so I never stopped talking about the conflicting sources and the Elfrida Clagg article. Sorry for confusing you, though.
With that out of the way though, I agree with Option A. WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 17:58, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
- Okay we both got our wires crossed then. Re-read the start of this talk page. Again, it started off talking about the Elfrida Clagg-Elfrida Cragg confusion. Note the different surname spellings. Clagg with an L and Cragg with an R. The name Elfrida Cragg cropped up in a different first-tier canon source again, with no mention of the Wizard's Council, and very much nothing do do with the 14th century-17th century thing. I hope we're on the same page about that now. - MrSiriusBlack Talk 18:48, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Honestly, I didn't notice the difference in spelling until you pointed it out now. In my head, I read it as Clagg-Clagg confusion and figured Andre G. Dias was confused about what century Elfrida was active. My bad. WeaseleyIsOurKing89 (talk) 18:52, 3 November 2021 (UTC)