Talk:John Dawlish

Where's a cite for the first name?

I only ever remember seeing this character called "Dawlish" in the books.Where is a source citation for his first name being "John"?--Louis E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 17:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe it was mentioned during one of Rowling's book readings (or something similar) at the Natural History Museum in London. However, I have been unable to find a source for this. Anyone know where one is? - Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 22:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Update - the only sources I can find are mentions of the fact in HP forums. Since this is the case, and we have no "official" source to attribute it to, should we still keep this at John Dawlish, or move back to Dawlish until official confirmation is made? - Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 07:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

-I believe that Rowling did say it at one of her readings, because John Noe was raving about it on pottercast. Alex Scamander

It's confirmed by Rowling herself on PotterCast 130. - Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 19:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Picture

This picture is terrible ill try to get a decent screenshot from my DVD to replace it.Me_Potter_Fan 09:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The picture looks like he's under the Imperius Curse. --Mark ^{(Talk to me)} 19:06, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Me Potter Fan was referring to an older picture that was deleted and replaced with the current one. ★ Starstuff ^{(Owl me!)} 02:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Name

Would it be more factually correct if we renamed this page along with others to Johnathan Dawlish? Or the full variant of their names? --70.95.158.30 05:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Where is it is ever said his first name is "Jonathan"? "John" could be his full first name. Same with Harry; at no point is he ever referred to as "Harold", his full name is stated to be Harry James Potter. - Nick O'Demus 05:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Duellist

If he was such a bad duellist, then why is it listed as a skill?BachLynn^(Accio!) 02:01, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

When I remember right Dirk Cresswell thought already that there was a Bedazzlement charm/jinx or Confusion charm/jinx on him so that Dirk Cresswell already could defeat him easily and could escape. That could be also the cause that Augusta Longbottom could do so much harm to him. Harry granger 19:33, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Duel in Dumbledore's Office

"Despite having Cornelius Fudge, Percy Weasley, Dolores Umbridge, and Kingsley Shacklebolt to back him up (though Shacklebolt was actually an ally of Dumbledore's and it is unknown if he would have been much help), Dawlish was still defeated by Dumbledore's magic."

According to this line, all four of the people listed, along with Dawlish, duelled Dumbledore. However, prior to the duel, Percy left to send an owl, and it makes no reference to him coming back to the office. - Deathislife2011 09:58, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Done: removed Percy. - Nick O'Demus 10:51, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Removal of canon facts

I recently tried to add a few canon facts on Dawlish's list of Magical Abilities and Skills, but they were promptly removed, as this person believed that there was no canon to support it. However, I disagree. This person wrote that Dawlish stepped towards Dumbledore in confusion. That was not the case: 

"Fudge stared at Dumbledore with a very silly expression on his face, as though he had just been stunned by a sudden blow and could not quite believe it had happened. He made a small choking noise, then looked round at Kingsley and the man with short grey hair, who alone of everyone in the room had remained entirely silent so far. The latter gave Fudge a reassuring nod and moved forwards a little, away from the wall. Harry saw his hand drift, almost casually, towards his pocket.

'Don't be silly, Dawlish,' said Dumbledore kindly. 'I'm sure you are an excellent Auror--I seem to remember that you achieved "Outstanding" in all your NEWTs--but if you attempt to--er--bring me in by force, I will have to hurt you.' The man called Dawlish blinked rather foolishly. He looked towards Fudge again, but this time seemed to be hoping for a clue as to what to do next."

Dawlish reacted with confusion on the statement, not his duty or showing lack in intelligence nor skill. However - as Rowling pointed out, no Auror would be capable of keeping up with Dumbledore.

Also, even IF it was the case that he stepped forward out of confusion, it would be silly to remove part of the text which describes Dawlish's Auror Skills, as Fudge, flawed as he was,  undoubtedly took his personal safety seriously. This suggests that Dawlish is among the most capable Aurors the Ministry of Magic has, and that his repeated injuries are placed in the series solely because both we readers and Rowling herself found them entertaining, something she admit in an interview was why his name appeared in connection with that he was jinxed, cursed or otherwise defeated by other wizards of witches.

Yes, I did remove those facts, and am starting to have some doubts about having done so. I misread that quote when I read the book, so I have blame to take for that. However, none of the other Aurors had Confundus Charms placed on them, they knew how to block them. It doesn't matter that they were only done because Rowling found it funny, the fact remains that in the books, he was constantly jinxed, hexed and cursed.

Nonetheless, I'll understand if you want to add it back to the article what you had before, although it would be preferred if you kept the font the same instead of using all of those <font><font size> things, and.... just a helpful tip, but instead of copying and pasting the URL you can just use these brackets [[]] around the article name in order to make a link to it ;) --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 21:59, April 9, 2013 (UTC)

I apologize if my description of why I felt you were wrong came out as rude, I had a tough day, although that's really no excuse.

Yes, it's correct that none of the other Aurors were Confunded, but that simply implies that Dawlish had a weakness they didn't have, and likewise may have had skills they didn't possess. And yes, I think it do matter that Rowling placed it with the intention of having his injuries as a running gag, because that simply means that his mentioning was ment to be a running gag for the fans, and thus don't really make him an inadept wizard. After all, he IS the only known character in the series to achive Outstanding on all his N.E.W.T-Exams besides Dumbledore and McGonagall. 

Also, had he been as clumsy and weak-willed as the books presents him, he would not been able to pass the Auror Training Program in the first place.

Thanks for the tip, I didn't remember about that way to link to pages. :-) --User:Simen Johannes Fagerli.

Senior Auror?

Should we change it so that John is a Senior Auror instead of an Auror? Kingsley is described as a high-ranking Auror, and the wiki describes him as an Senior Auror. While no reference to a difference between Auror and Senior Auror is ever mentioned in the books or the movies, if we are to continue to use it, we should make Dawlish a Senior. As mentioned above, there is no doubt in my mind that Cornelius Fudge took his personal security very seriously, and he would most likely chose a high-ranking, older member of the Auror Office becuse they have more experience. Also, John have gray hair, which implies that he perhaps is middle-aged and have been in the game for a while. -User:Simen Johannes Fagerli

Sorry, but anything referring to him as "Senior Auror" should be removed, as the books, films and video games never make a distinction. Therefore, we can't put it up. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 19:53, April 10, 2013 (UTC)

In that case, I think you should remove the title Senior Auror on Kingsley Shacklebolt's page as well. No reference is ever made of him being a Senior Auror either, only that he is a high-ranking in the Office. -User:Simen Johannes Fagerli.  

Done --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 01:20, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Hyperbole and speculation

Every change I made is based on the books or Rowling's own comments on the character. Out of interest, what exactly was I "speculating" and "hyperboling" about? Ninclow (talk) 19:04, March 16, 2018 (UTC)

Skimming your version compared to the most recent one, I can tell you that modifiers like "very" are typically to be avoided in encyclopedic writing (though I will admit it feels natural to use such terms, and everyone's probably guilty of it on occasion). It is also preferable to simply state facts and leave out conclusions we think we are drawing from them. For instance, we know Dawlish was a proficient Auror, we know he was assigned to guard the Minister, but to state the that two are related is speculative. Perhaps serving as the Minister's bodyguard is something all Aurors do in rotation; after all, they're all supposed to be elite wizards. -- 1337star ^{(Drop me a line!)} 19:23, March 16, 2018 (UTC)

As 1337star has hit all the major points, I would only add that in Dawlish's case whatever skills he had were never displayed in the text and he was bested during literally every encounter described. As such, it seems odd to play up his exceptional status. He was an auror, but just one of many, and was never shown to perform to any noteworthy or exceptional degree. Thanks to Seth for reworking the text to keep the details of the edits without the hyperbole. Cheers --Ironyak1 (talk) 20:21, March 16, 2018 (UTC)

13337star:

It is not speculative, it's stating the obvious.

At no point in canon is Fudge ever shown in the company of others than the people he intends to meet with before the fifth book, when he feels his security is at risk from Dumbledore moving against him to usurp his position. So that is that theory discharded. That aside, considering how the man Fudge was so afraid of was none other than the greatest wizard of modern times, of course Fudge would pick somebody known to be particularly good at his job. Why be content witg scraping someone from the bottom of the barrel when he could simply order Scrimgeour to enlist one of his best and brighrest agents? The simple answer is that he wouldn't. 

Ironyak1: 

It is not odd at all. Had he not been able to do the things I described, he would neither have been able to qualify as an Auror, let alone be deemed good enough at it to catch the eye of anyone in authority looking for someone to guard the head of state. And no, he is not one of many, he is one of a select few. Only the best and brightest of witches and wizards could become an Auror, and that is what John did. Anyone capable of passing the recquirements would on the virtue of that accomplishment alone be an exceptional witch or wizard. And Dawlish was not merely a passable Auror, which in and by itself meant he was an expectional wizard, he was considered to be an excellent one and even became enlisted as bodyguard to the British Minister for Magic. While he is never seen "perform to any noteworthy or exceptional degree", we still knew he was fully capable of doing so, otherwise, he would have failed to become an Auror. As such, there was no "hyperbole", there were only facts. Ninclow (talk) 21:16, March 16, 2018 (UTC) 

Again, we know nothing of how he did on his tests or how he came to accompany the Minister. You assume that he was chosen (and not just a rotating assignment), and even if Fudge did choose him, the Minister's record does not indicate that he would be a good judge of ability of character. While as an auror he was an exception compared to other wizards, nothing we're told makes him an exceptional auror - if anything, quite the contrary given his stated record of performance. Seth took the time to find the right balance in the abilities section, I just removed all the similar overstatement earlier on in the article. --Ironyak1 (talk) 21:28, March 16, 2018 (UTC)

There were no "overstatements" in the articles. Saying somebody of considerable ability has considerable ability is not an overstatement. Would it be a overstatement to say Professor Dippet was an old wizard too?

How do we know that...

That he's an expectional wizard? No witch or wizard who is not of exceptional ability would not have managed to become an Auror.

He was good at his job? He wouldn't have been assigned to Fudge otherwise. Regardless of who stood for the assignment, be it Scimgeour or Fudge, they would not have picked an Auror whose whole career, or even parts of the career, consist of screwups like the ones Rowling have him repeat in the books for for our amusement,

"It don't say so specifically in the book" That doesn't matter, because it don't change the fact that if what is stated don't meet the above conditions, they wouldn't be canonically accurate and/or could not have taken place within the realm of the universe Rowling created as we know it..Ninclow (talk) 22:12, March 16, 2018 (UTC)