Talk: Penelope Clearwater

Head Girl

Where is the source to the information that Penelope is a) Head Girl and b) the same year as Percy?  I was so sure she was a year behind Percy, and don't recall ever reading that she was Head Girl - is that conjecture based on the fact that she was dating Percy?  I would assume if she were Head Girl that Percy would have made a big deal about it but...  (75.72.233.80 02:40, February 28, 2013 (UTC) ; Maco Dralfoy)

Blood status

Where does it sa ythat she was muggle Born?Harry Potter Fantic 1 18:32, 24 December 2007 (UTC)Harry Potter Fantic 1

If it says it at all, it would be in Chamber of Secrets after the Basilisk attacks her. Mafalda Hopkirk 04:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that the association is made since the Basilisk targets Muggle-borns. Unfortunately, since she was with Hermione at the time (a known Muggle-born), she may have been caught in the crossfire as it were, and not the actual target. - Cavalier One^{(Wizarding Wireless Network)} 14:50, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe there is sufficient evidence to include Penelope in Category:Muggle-borns. Yes, she was attacked by the Basilisk, but, as Cav pointed out, she was with Hermione at the time. Of the other Basilisk victims, we know for certain that Justin, Colin, and Myrtle were Muggle-born (Draco refers to Myrtle as a "Mudblood" in CoS12). It's safe to say Mrs. Norris wasn't Muggle-born, and as for Sir Nicholas, we don't have information either way.

We're also given conflicting evidence about Penelope's blood status. In DH, when the Trio are caught by Snatchers, Hermione poses as Penelope and claims to be half-blood. Although Hermione was suddenly thrust into a dangerous situation, and had to think fast, I don't think she'd have made such a huge mistake as claiming to be someone who was Muggle-born. Even if she never found out Penelope's blood status for certain, Hermione would've remembered that Penelope had been Petrified by the Basilisk, and that that meant she could be Muggle-born. I thus think that Hermione was reasonably aware that Penelope was not Muggle-born.

But we don't have solid enough evidence to put Penelope in any of the parentage categories. ★ Starstuff ^{(Owl me!)} 09:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree that she should be removed from the Muggle-borns category. There's conflicting evidence, thus she shouldn't be in either category. Oread ^(talk) 02:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

well in cos it states that there were four attacks on muggle-borns as said by fudge wouldn't that count?18:05, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

first game?

Where does Penelope <appear in the first game?--Rodolphus 08:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the first game from the "Appearances" section until it can be confirmed. ★ Starstuff ^{(Owl me!)} 14:17, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Muggle born

She must have been Muggle-born, cause the Basilisc only atacked Muggle borns.

201.172.65.92 03:27, July 18, 2011 (UTC)Mee!

In 2009 it was concluded that Penelope Clearwater would be removed from the list of Muggle-Borns, and her blood status changed due to conflicting information. This has not yet been done.

216.121.149.232 00:30, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

Where was this concluded? -Shorty1982 00:55, December 19, 2011 (UTC)

In the discussion at the beginning of this talk page.

216.121.149.232 17:55, December 20, 2011 (UTC)

Picture?

Where does this picture in the infobox come from? i thought we only see her from the back in the movie?67.253.254.189 17:51, July 22, 2011 (UTC)jpc

Blood-status

The back-and-forth regarding her blood-status is getting a bit ridiculous, nor does discussion of discrepancies regarding it belong in the main article. I'm removing it from both the infobox and category and putting the information regarding the discrepancy in behind-the-scenes.

P.S.: There are some claims in the edit history that she is specifically referred to as being "muggle born" in Chamber of Secrets, but if so, where? What chapter? ProfessorTofty 22:25, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

Chapter 17, pg. 310 in the Scholastic version, specifically...

"She set the Serpent of Slytherin on four Mudbloods, and the Squib's cat."

— The memory of Tom Riddle on Ginny Weasley's actions.

...is I believe the quote in question. But I suppose that depends on how reliable of a source you think a piece of Tom Riddle's soul is. Eh, Pottermore will probably clarify this issue eventually, so I guess it can stay as is for now. -- 1337star (Owl Post) 22:34, February 18, 2012 (UTC)

i'm reading CoS now and on chapter 14 page 261 fudge says to hagrid "very bad business. had to come. four attacks on muggle-borns." wouldn't that include penelope? because thats colin, justin, hermione, and penelope.209.159.233.194 17:53, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. I think that's sufficient. Alright, I'll go ahead and fix it up and refer people to the talk page. ProfessorTofty 17:59, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

But then don't you also have to take into consideration deathly hallows? When the snatchers pick them all up Hermione uses her name when they ask for one. Why would she use another muggleborns name in that situtation? Obviously we could say that she just didn't want to use her own because they'd know who they were, but shes Hermione. Shes the clever one. She wouldn't use a muggleborn name and also directly after using that name she states that her blood status is Half. And why would fudge know theyre all muggleborn anyway in CoS? They probably just talk about it like that because 3 of the 4 WERE muggleborn. So I think it's safe to assume Penelope is half and was just in the crossfire of the basilisks attack. . . but maybe thats just me Touj0urspur (talk) 19:03, July 2, 2012 (UTC)

Nearly-Headless Nick is another candidate for the fourth Muggle-born being referred to in the two quotes above. This makes the most sense to me. Penelope was petrified when she was with Hermione, a known Muggle-born, and thus someone who was obviously a deliberate target of the attack. Nick, on the other hand, was with Mrs. Norris at the time, and it doesn't seem like a cat would've been deliberately targeted. So the question of Penelope's blood status remains open. ★ Starstuff ^{(Owl me!)} 16:56, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. Okay, I guess we're just going to have to accept this as ambiguous for the time being. ProfessorTofty (talk) 17:14, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Nick was not with Mrs. Norris when she was attacked. Nick was with Justin when he was attacked. Isn't it possible that Tom Riddle saw Penelope as a mudblood and Hermione didn't. Maybe she was the daughter of a squib and a muggle. Maybe she was the daughter of two-muggle-borns. I'm just saying that maybe her blood status was interpreted differently by Tom Riddle and Hermione. SorenaJ 17:26, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Entirely possible. The point is, we don't have anything solid either way. ProfessorTofty (talk) 17:54, December 20, 2012 (UTC)

Wrong Photo

I think that the photo first shown of Penelope Clearwater is incorrect. In the books, it is said she has dark, curly hair, but in the picture it is blond, short, and straight. And when they mentioned her, she was said to be a prefect, and in the photo she looks much to young to be one. I suggest finding a new one, for this is incorrect information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Proud to be a ravenclaw (talk • contribs).

Film portrayals of characters do not always match how they are described in the books. That does not impact their ability to be used as pictures for our articles. See also Mrs. Cole, Barty Crouch Jr., and Petunia Dursley for a few other examples. -- 1337star ^{(Drop me a line!)} 17:37, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

She is definitely the fourth muggle-born to which Riddle is referring...As the monster was clearly set on Justin Finch-Fletchley, being that he was a muggle-born, Nearly-Headless Nick was clearly just conveniently in the way. 

Blood Status

Wouldn't Penelope Clearwater's blood status have been muggle born? She was one of the students to have fallen victim to the basilisk, the others being Hermione Granger, Colin Creevey, and Justin Finch-Fletchley. All three of those other students were muggle borns, and according to theory, the only students that fell victim to the basilisk were muggle borns, because that was the only blood status of wizards and witches, that Tom Riddle intended to set the basilisk on.

Hermione Granger pretended to be Penelope Clearwater, and a half blood in 1998 when she was captured by the snatchers, which could imply that Penelope was a half blood student. But I see this as being incredibly unlikely, and that Hermione was only pretending to be half blood because admitting to being muggle born would only have made things worse for herself. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 00:39, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

This issue was discussed further up the talk page.

We can't say for sure that Penelope was Muggle-born, because the Basilisk (likely) didn't intend to attack them. It happened to be around the corner from Hermione and Penelope when they checked with the mirror, hence why they were Petrified. --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 01:59, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Well in light of your response, I'm picking up the feeling that perhaps Hermione was the intended target and Penelope might just have been an added bonus. ― C.Syde (talk | contribs) 10:01, July 14, 2015 (UTC)

School year groups

I don't understand why you keep undoing my edit. The dates you keep reverting it back to have no source anyway or any logical explanation. The source you referred to is not for the date of birth, it is for the place of birth. It is an interview in which Jo says every student at Hogwarts has to be born in Britain. The 2 September to the 1 September makes no sense. In the Britain, as in many countries, it is common knowledge that to be put in a specific year group, you have to be born between 1 September to the 31 August. A simple google search of "school year groups UK" will tell you that. This is one of the pages which come up - http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/education/schools/admissions-and-moving-school/starting-school-age-and-year-groups/. Here is another place which talks specifically about Hogwarts (scroll down to the heading "birth year", where they say you have to be born between 1 September to the 31 August to be put in a certain year group) -http://members.madasafish.com/~cj_whitehound/Fanfic/birthdates.htm

The new school year begins on September 1, meaning you have to be the same age as the rest of your class by then. Hogwarts is no exception, since we know that is also the exact date they get the Hogwarts Express anyway. Witches and Wizards have to be eleven to get their Hogwarts letter. They can't get it the day they are supposed to start school! The day before is mad enough, but the same morning? I don't want an edit war over it, because it is such a small piece of information for a very minor character but these are the dates by which you have to be born to start school in a certain year. --May32 (talk) 09:32, July 22, 2016 (UTC)

The date on which they recieve the letter varies. Harry actually recieved his first letter a few days before his eleventh birthday. There is nothong in the books that a person could not be born on 1 September, and recieved the letter a few days or weeks earlierer. All Rowling has said, I think on her old website, is that you have to be eleven when you start Hogwarts. Living in Germany, I´m not familiar with British age groups and will read the link you posted soon. I personally think we cannot exclude that the wizarding world has diferent kaws than the Muggle worrld.--Rodolphus (talk) 09:49, July 22, 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see your right about the letter! :) But we do know Hogwarts works in the same way as schools in Britain do - in their fifth year at Hogwarts, students sit their O.W.L.S which Jo said are the equivalent to G.C.S.Es. In Britain, G.C.S.Es are major exams which we sit in our fifth year at high school. She then said N.E.W.T.s are the equivalent to A Levels. We select a certain number of subjects for for our sixth and seven year at high school just like they do at Hogwarts. Hogwarts starts term the same time Muggle schools do. Although a lot of things are different (because "magic!"), the basic way a school works remains the same between Muggle school in Britain and There is no reason why this would be different either. Unless Jo says otherwise - which I doubt - we have to assume the dates are the same as they are in Britain because Hogwarts is a British school and Jo has already made connections between Hogwarts and British Muggle schools.--May32 (talk) 10:04, July 22, 2016 (UTC)

I've always been a bit wary of trying to pin down the exact cut-off dates for this as JKR has not clearly stated any. We know for Harry, his acceptance letter dhould have arrived several days before his 11th birthday, but for Minerva McGonagall it arrived on her 11th birthday Writing by J. K. Rowling: "Professor McGonagall" at Pottermore - it is unclear why the difference. Yes, you have to be 11 to attend, but do you have to be 11 by the time Hogwarts Express leaves, or when you are sorted or ? Those born on Sep 1st present a mess of complications, so I think it's easier to say you have to be 11 before term starts on Sep 1st. (those born on 1 Sep get a letter and a year to study up, similar to Hermione :) my 2 cents in this speculation --Ironyak1 (talk) 16:26, July 22, 2016 (UTC)

Lego 5 - 7

Though I agree that it was most likely done for aesthetic reasons, I don't think we can completely exclude that she needed to repeat several years. Her exam results were not revealed. Also, Harry was not close to her, so he not have known that she repeated. We could add a short sentence about possible repeat years to the BTS section. What do you think?--Rodolphus (talk) 14:25, May 4, 2019 (UTC)

Possibly, but this could only really belong in BTS, since it's unproven. She is a playable character in LEGO Harry Potter: Years 1-4 so it probably made some sense for Traveller's Tales to put her in the sequel too. RedWizard98 (talk) 11:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Image

Why is it so blurry?Masterkitty5450 (talk) 00:42, July 2, 2020 (UTC)

COS chapter 12 appearance

In Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 12 (The Polyjuice Potion), a female Ravenclaw prefect, who isn't named in the chapter, reprimands a transformed Harry and Ron as Goyle and Crabbe, for asking for the locaiton of the Slytherin Common Room, appearing to suspect they are being deceptive. A female prefect is later named as Penelope Clearwater after she is petrified, but can be definitely be sure it was Penelope in chapter 12, and not another female prefect? I know a female and male prefect is appointed in their fifth year in each house, but possibly a sixth or seventh prefect was in chapter 12 instead? I'm assuming because Penelope is the only named female Ravenclaw prefect and her identification later in the book seems to confirm it was her in chapter 12, and her appearance in a Pottermore image petrified in the Hospital Wing also gives her blonde curly hair, as in chapter 12. What do people think? RedWizard98 (talk) 11:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Harry recognises her as the girl they asked for the way when he sees her petrified in chapter 14.Rodolphus (talk) 12:11, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

That's good to know, I haven't checked every single detail in the book for a long time. RedWizard98 (talk) 14:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Years of her school life

There seems to be some issues with the years of her schooling at Hogwarts. Given that she appears to have graduated by the end of the 1993-1994 school year, along with Percy, as she is not seen in any future books. Using this logic, she would have started Hogwarts in 1987, and would have had to have been at least a fifth year in the 1992-1993 school year (COS) to have been a prefect. However, there may have been disruptions to her schooling, or she may have been a year below Percy. Any thoughts on how this can be suitably clarified folks? RedWizard98 (talk) 07:56, 16 January 2022 (UTC)