Talk: Vera Verto

Image

Wouldn´r a moving image be appropriate? Can´t anyone upload one? --Rodolphus 13:37, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Fera or Vera?

Ok, having watched the movie, the subtitles spell the spell Vera, not Fera. While I am perfectly willing to believe it should be Fera, this is not what the movie says, and since this spell is not in the books, the movie is the only source (other then JK, but I dont see an interview with her on the page). If you listen to the movie, you'll notice it is clearly Fera, not Vera. Unfortunately, not everyone is perfect, and there was a mistake when the subtitles were made.64.114.58.93 16:36, May 18, 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean to disrespect your opinion, 64.114.58.93, but when I listened to the film it sounded more like a murky cross between Fera and Vera. 99.252.196.61 03:54, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

What is the source for this being Fera Verto as opposed to Vera Verto, as the subtitles for the DVD apparently state? If it's merely based on one's interpretation of what's being said, we've decided on another case that what the subtitles say should be used. -- 1337star ^{(Drop me a line!)} 23:26, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

I don't exactly know how much help it is, but I have a link here supporting "Fera" instead of "Vera": http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/spells/spells_films.html#fera_verto. Of course, I agree that it sounds like Vera Verto, and the subtitles say so. 99.252.196.61 00:25, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's not any help - the Lexicon is a fan-site and therefore not a canon source. ProfessorTofty (talk) 00:40, August 1, 2012 (UTC)Game Guides

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of that - thanks :). I'll have to remember for next time. 99.252.196.61 03:54, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

The subtitles spell it "Vera Verto" all right (check this picture). While I do think the actors say "Fera Verto", this is the only official transcription we can go by. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 01:07, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

What about closed-captioning? When the film airs on ABC Family, I think the wording that appears on Fera Verto, but don't quote me on that until the next time that ABC Family runs the film. (Unless someone has an airing saved and could check.) ProfessorTofty (talk) 01:39, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

This copy of the script also says "Vera verto" (although only the first "V" is capitalized). - Nick O'Demus 08:22, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Subtitles are based on what that person who writes them hears. I never count them as canon. "Fera" makes more sense if you look at the etymology. Fera means something along the lines of beast, whilst Vera means true. -- PerryPeverell 13:01, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

I think the fact that it's spelled "Vera" in the script is a very strong argument, but that etymology is also a very strong element. Fera makes sense based on the etymology and Vera doesn't. But, then again, I don't think it would be the first time that the etymology wasn't quite right, if you know what I mean - that there have been other spell names in the past that wouldn't be quite correct based on the etymology. ProfessorTofty (talk) 15:15, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Which script are you referring to? The one Nick O'Demus linked? Because that's not the official, no official script is formatted that way. -- PerryPeverell 17:42, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

I was, but you're right, I didn't have a look at it. And having looked at it, I agree, that doesn't look official. ProfessorTofty (talk) 19:08, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this official script (the only one I know of out there) doesn't contain the incantation, only a description of the spell. It probably wasn't thought up yet at the time of this draft. -- 1337star ^{(Drop me a line!)} 19:18, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

I don't mean to disrespect anyone's opinions, but pretty much we're back at square one as to whether it's Fera or Vera. The subtitles all say Vera, the script Nick O'Demus linked refers to it as Vera. However, the fansite lists it as Fera, the etymology supports Fera, and most people hear it as Fera, just to summarize things. 99.252.196.61 19:44, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

A suggestion, we leave it as "Fera", because it is etymologically correct, and note that "Vera" is be possible because of the reasons already mentioned above. -- PerryPeverell 21:48, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

To leave it as "Fera" would be deliberately disregarding a perfectly valid canon source. The official film subtitles (the most official transcripts, in my point of view, although I did not think of closed-captioning before) label it as "Vera", so "Vera" it should be. If that particular spell featured in the books and it was spelt "Vera", would we have disregarded the official canon spelling and go with a more-likely, but completely based in original research "Fera"? It'd be just plain wrong. Besides, who's to say that Steve Kloves (or, if not him, the one who originally came up with the incantation) meant it to mean "I change beast" (as in "Fera Verto")? He could easily invisioned it as "Vera Verto", or, "I change it right/I change it properly", or something among those lines. My point is, we just cannot disregard the subtitles just because we feel it's not right (if were to take only what makes sense as canon then magic, Hogwarts and wizards would not be canon as they are in direct contradiction of the most basic laws of physics and of common sense). Unless a correction is made in some way (i.e. newer editions of DVDs having it spelt "Fera Verto"), we should go as it was transcribed officially. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 22:05, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

I just meant, because we have no official source, we should go with that which makes the most sense. I don't rely on subtitles because they are sometimes wrong (because they are written by someone who depends solely on what he hears on screen, they don't get scripts or something). -- PerryPeverell 22:15, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Given that the official film subtitles refer to it as "Vera Verto" and no other source says "Fera Verto", I don't think there's really any weight to your argument. (Which, I believe, is the same for the Kyra vs. Kira argument you-know-where as well) -- SaXon 14:33, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Subtitles make mistakes, since the people who create them never get to see the official scripts, they base what they write on what they hear. I don't see why you're all against "Fera Verto", since that is the only logical one. -- PerryPeverell 15:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Canon doesn't need to be logical. We are discussing how a magical incantation is spelt: where is logic in a world where magic exists? But I digress: my point is that we don't get to decide what's canon and what's not, any more than we get to decide whether the incantation is spelt "Fera Verto" or "Vera Verto". Our job here is to record what we deem to be canon. Nothing else. If the subtitles list it as "Vera" who are we to say they're wrong without further evidence? --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 15:17, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

If we don't get to decide, then what's the point of this discussion? We're trying to decide which is canon right? You want this wiki's content to be correct, so why would you ignore logic (even magic can be logical, especially when it's a spell). -- PerryPeverell 17:01, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Seth. We need to match the spelling with the subtitles.--Rodolphus (talk) 17:05, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I really don't get why you guys are so ignorant of the fact that "Fera" means "beast". Why would they use "Vera" which means "true"? I get you want canon, but subtitles aren't. If there are no canon sources, we should take that which is most logical. "Where is logic in a world where magic exists?" is just an easy way to push aside what I had to say. There is a logic to the way they invent spells, you know. -- PerryPeverell 17:20, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Of course we don't get to decide on canon. If we did not agree with Rowling that Ron and Hermione married in the end, would we simply call a vote and, poof, they didn't by decision of our board of editors? Or, if we didn't want Voldemort to die in the end, would it change canonical fact if we just wanted it to not have happened? I trust you would find this ludicrous at best. The very same reasoning applies in this matter: the only official transcript we have (unless some other official movie transcripts are presented) spells the incantation "Vera Verto" so, as much as we might think it's wrong, we've got to call things what the official canon sources call them. I'm afraid there's no other way around.

No, I'm afraid I must correct you, we are not "trying to decide which is canon" at all. We're trying to determine, to figure out, which one is canon. There's a difference. No, the decision is not up to us; we're merely discussing the matter to see if the information we are currently presenting is compatible with known canon. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 17:27, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

But at least we had a canon source on that. The books said Voldemort died, Rowling said Ron and Hermione married. But we have NO CANON SOURCE on how this spell is spelled. What do you do when there is no canon source at all? I don't understand why you guys think of subtitles as official source material when they clearly aren't.

I see I won't be able to convince you. But I'll be looking for real canon material. I'm convinced that Fera is right. -- PerryPeverell 17:32, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I don't mean to trod on your opinions, PerryPeverell, but the subtitles say Vera, as does an unoffical script, and I hear it was Vera; so far only fansites and fans such as yourself hear it as Fera. Again, I don't want to downsize your argument (which is actually quite good) but should I rename the article Vera Verto, at least until someone provides something other than fansites and fans saying Fera? Of course I'd be writing in the Behind the Scenes and Etymology sections to state that according to proper etymology Fera is correct. Hunnie Bunn (talk) 17:36, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I like how you base your entire argument in the fact that the official DVD subtitles are not a valid canon source, but don't seem to present any justification for it. A quick skim through the canon policy reveals the subtitles have all the canonical validity they're entitled to as tier 2 canon, as they're an interant part of the films. So why insisting that the subtitles "clearly aren't official source material"?

To be merely convinced of something does not make it right, so I think you do well to go looking for more canon material, so that we can settle this debate. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 17:40, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

So... no, I shouldn't temporarily rename the article? Just wanting to make sure. Hunnie Bunn (talk) 17:46, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Subtitles are created by people who had nothing to do with the films. They base the subtitles on what they hear and that alone. I've seen many mistakes in several subtitles already. And Hunnie Bunn, why would you count an unofficial script as canon? -- PerryPeverell 17:51, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

And because you've seen many mistakes in several subtitles that gives us the right to override the only officially licensed transcript available? Yes, because if you didn't notice, they are officially licensed transcriptions. Isn't that good enough for you? Subtitles are a part of the films, and, as such, are a valid canon source. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 18:13, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Anywho, according to [1] and [2] it's Vera Verto. The first one provides support through etymology, and the latter is a transcription of the official script, even if it itself isn't official; also the one Nick O'Demus provides says it's Vera. Hunnie Bunn (talk) 18:18, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

The first link, particularly, provides a very good point about the spell's etymology (apart from, obviously, stating that spelling it "Fera" constitutes original research, which I had already pointed out). I wonder if PerryPeverell would like to put his two cents into the matter? --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 18:24, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Why hasn't that info been posted on here or linked to? It's indeed a good point and I would be more willing to accept that "Vera" is right with this explanation. However, I still doubt that it was based on "verre" and will be looking for more info. I have already e-mailed to Warner Brothers in the hopes that they can help me contact David Heyman, Steve Kloves, or someone else who might know the correct spelling. -- PerryPeverell 18:35, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Alright. In the meantime, shall the article be moved to the only official spelling we have at the moment? --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 18:39, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Go ahead. As long as there's a reference to "Fera" being the possible correct spelling. -- PerryPeverell 18:41, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I tried to rename the article, but apparently "an article of that name already exists". Hence, I'll rewrite the article, and if somebody could please either help me with this issue (especially in case something like it happens in future) or could somebody please change the title who knows how to? Thank you very much, and it was quite excellent conversing with you all, Hunnie Bunn (talk) 18:47, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, very much, to everyone for talking, and thank you again to whoever helped edit the page. Hunnie Bunn (talk) 19:06, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hello everybody, I'm a Latin student and I would like to contribute to this discussion with some linguistics. Although I believe the script says "Vera Verto", I think the proper latin incantation would be different. Namely "Vera Verto" could mean two things: one of them is "I change the truths" (which is also pretty much what the spell does) and the other one is "I change to truths", in this case the proper Latin full sentence would be "[in] Vera Verto" (it is very common in Latin to leave prepositions ("in, ad, on etc.") out).

The translation given on the Wikia page "I change truly" couldn't be right because "truly" is an adverb and the latin adverb for truly is "vere" (not "vera") the incantation in that case will be "Vere Verto". I think the change from "Vera" to "Fera" is a very elegant one with the only difficulty that this also isn't proper Latin. "Fera Verto" means literally "I, (being) an animal, will change" (although that's pretty funny too). If you want to change an animal, you would need the Latin sentence "Ferum Verto (if the animale is male)" or "Feram Verto (if the animal is female)".Dranoy (talk) 13:59, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Merely Animal to Water Goblet?

I was going to add this to the article, but then I remembered speculation wasn't allowed. True, the only instance it was seen it was used to turn an animal into a water goblet, but given the etymology (it probably best translates to "I change right" or "I turn right") and the context in which it was said ("Now, today, we will be transforming animals into water goblets. Like so. One, two, three, Vera verto") it appears to me as though this spell could probably be used as a general transformation spell as opposed to a singular 'turn-this-rat-into-a-goblet-and-do-nothing-else-with-it' sort of spell. What does everyone else think? Hunnie Bunn (talk) 19:09, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

McGonagall specifically says that it turns "animals into water goblets". She even has animals given out to her whole class to practice this spell on, so it does seem like it only turns animals into goblets, I'm afraid. --  Seth Cooper  owl post! 21:41, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I understand what you mean completely, but I wondered whether perhaps she only said that to keep them from turning each other into slugs or something. Maybe I'm just missing something from the script (probably because I only skimmed it) but it seemed to me like she meant "it can be used to turn animals to water goblets". Thanks for responding, and I sincerely hope I've raised a conversation worth having with more than one person. Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:56, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

I've always thought that a bit strange myself - what's the practical value of a spell that only turns a specific animal into a water goblet? Or that turns a teacup into a gerbil? I've kinda wondered if a knowledgeable wizard, knowing the right words, could start with any particular object and with a particular animal, or vice versa. Because it seems a bit ridiculous that there would be a separate incantation for each of the various ones - I mean, the possibilities are endless. Teacup to gerbil, rat, mouse, vole, guinea pig, etc. etc. ad infinitum. ProfessorTofty (talk) 02:32, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

I understand your contribution completely, and I'm enthralled that you've joined our discussion, but I believe that either you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you - probably the latter, judging by how tired I am. I, too, believe that it would be quite absurd to have a different incantation to turn a mouse into a snuffbox from the spell used to turn, say, a camel into a snuffbox. But what I was wondering - given the current etymology of Vera Verto, is that although it's only ever been proven that the spell turns animals to water goblets, could it turn, say, a bat into a horse or an aeroplane into a cake? By the way, on a topic completely unrelated to Vera Verto, your comment voiced all of the thoughts I've ever had regarding transforming spells. It would be completely absurd to have a separate incantation for each and every unique transformations - there would be millions Hunnie Bunn (talk) 03:36, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Based on the etymology as described, I'd say yeah, it's certainly a possibility, whether it was Vera Verto or Fera Verto. Of course, as you were saying, it's a bit academic, since we can only make reference on the page to what's been shown in canon. ProfessorTofty (talk) 07:28, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's true, but it's fascinating all the same to speculate, wouldn't you agree? Hunnie Bunn (talk) 15:20, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Lily Evans Potter performing

Pardon if I am mistaken, but is not said somewhere (maybe in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone) by Petunia Evans Dursley that when Lily spent the Hogwarts' vacation at home, she performed magics like Vera Verto, which aroused jealousy in Petunia? Andre G. Dias (talk) 18:45, April 3, 2014 (Brazil)

Yes, she did use the Teacup to Rat spell, which I think is similar to this spell (either related or the same IMO). --Hunnie Bunn (talk) 22:13, April 3, 2014 (UTC)